Harrison Butker graduation speech

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL you can't make this stuff up. The opportunities for puns abound too (Swift kick?).

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/16/sport...cec/index.html

[Casey2296]

Good for him for standing up for normal folks with normal values.
It's always amazing to me that the "we accept all" progressive left gets so triggered when normal folks are brave enough to speak of their values.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So normal people think a woman's place is in the home? I'm far from woke or left wing, but come on, man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And there was this.

• In a swipe at LGBTQ communities, Butker encouraged graduates to have Catholic pride, but “not the deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it.”

Normal folks with normal values.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And there was this.

• In a swipe at LGBTQ communities, Butker encouraged graduates to have Catholic pride, but “not the deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it.”

Normal folks with normal values.

I'll defer to Morgan Freeman on that one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtY...IG1pbnV0ZXM%3D

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'll defer to Morgan Freeman on that one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtY...IG1pbnV0ZXM%3D

Well, I have to agree with Morgan Freeman's underlying point: We Americans need to celebrate the traits and values that unite us, rather than those that divide us.

This said, I'm not sure that's what Butker was aiming for in his speech.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So normal people think a woman's place is in the home? I'm far from woke or left wing, but come on, man.

There's many people, both men and women who desire a lifestyle where the man provides and the woman raises children in a functional two parent household surrounded by love and respect. Just look around at the current dysfunction that our children are being raised in and tell me this might be a better option for kids. And even if you disagree at least respect the men and women who have made their decision to raid their family this way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

There's many people, both men and women who desire a lifestyle where the man provides and the woman raises children in a functional two parent household surrounded by love and respect. Just look around at the current dysfunction that our children are being raised in and tell me this might be a better option for kids. And even if you disagree at least respect the men and women who have made their decision to raid their family this way.

Of course, and I completely respect and approve of that choice. I don't, however, accept that that's the only choice that's "normal." I would leave that word completely out of the discussion.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course, and I completely respect and approve of that choice. I don't, however, accept that that's the only choice that's "normal." I would leave that word completely out of the discussion.

Fair enough, I'll replace normal with optimal.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Good for him for standing up for normal folks with normal values.
It's always amazing to me that the "we accept all" progressive left gets so triggered when normal folks are brave enough to speak of their values.

This thread is a visibly obvious trap and you jumped right into it. I am walking the other way and not looking back.

[Shoeless Moe]

I wasn't a Chiefs fan.

I am now.

[CardPadre]

Coming soon, Caitlin Clark tells Casey2296 and Shoeless_Moe how to live their most fulfilling lives as men...and they appreciate it.





.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I wasn't a Chiefs fan.



I am now.

Lol. Alienate 20 million Swifties but gain Shoeless Moe.

It's a wash!

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Lol. Alienate 20 million Swifties but gain Shoeless Moe.

It's a wash!

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Good! Get rid of the Swifties and let's get back to football.

[Gorditadogg]

I don't know if anybody here reads Ross Douthat, but he just wrote an interesting article about Harrison Butker. I was raised Catholic and was indoctrinated as well as anyone in the faith, but I did not realize there is a faction within the Church who want the Masses to be conducted in Latin again, because it's "how God wishes to be worshipped". (The Church approved common language Masses in the 1960s, and the Latin version was mostly gone by the mid-70s.)

Butker is a passionate Latin Mass Catholic, and works to get different parishes to hold Masses in Latin. He and fellow LMCs are really stirring things up, to the extent that Douthat calls his cause "progressive".

I get his articles in a weekly email, so I don't have a link for you, but if you can find it, it's a good read.

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[John1941]

I'm neither particularly knowledgeable nor particularly invested in this debate, but as a TLM Catholic who has run track with several people who are currently going to Benedictine I do have a few small points I'd like to make.

There is a distinction between believing that homosexuality is a deadly sin and hating the LGBTQ+. Granted, this is a distinction that is often ignored, but it is a real distinction. I am a devout Catholic and do not disagree with the Church's teaching that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time I am an unreserved fan of people such as Alan Turing, Edward Gorey, Oliver Sacks, W.H. Auden, etc. Hating people you believe are sinners is not Christian. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a bit of a cliche, but I believe it is true.

I am neither a woman nor married and don't have strong opinions about whether women should be stay-at-home-moms. I do know that my mom is very smart, a stay-at-home mom, a federal law clerk before that, and she believes she has chosen the better part. For whatever that's worth.

My personal opinion is that motherhood is the highest calling for a woman, but not their only possible calling. Women (obviously) have talents too, and I think it is a good thing to use the talents God has given you. I'm not sure what that should look like in practice, but thankfully as a high-schooler I don't need to know yet.

I don't have strong feelings about either the way other people live their lives or the opinions they hold, as long as they are not hateful. I can understand people disagreeing with Butker's opinions, but I personally think it is a misreading to think they are hateful.

I prefer thinking about and arguing about baseball & music & books, not politics; I've said enough or more than enough (I'm a verbose person).

Peace, y'all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

John, a sincere and well-written post.

I would say this. If it's acceptable for heterosexual people to express their sexuality, why is it a "sin" (indeed a "deadly sin" the term Butker used) for homosexual people to do so? Why was my friend in law school, a devout Catholic himself who happened to be gay, made to feel unwelcome at his church? Did he deserve that? To me it's a disgrace he was deemed a "sinner" for expressing his own desires. I hope the world has changed since then, but I read about Mike Johnson and I wonder if it really has.

I for one would not presume to judge what is sinful and what is not, except in obvious instances where something is harmful to other people. And I take umbrage to the attempted softening and excusing of anti-gay attitudes -- not directed at you personally.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

John, a sincere and well-written post.

I would say this. If it's acceptable for heterosexual people to express their sexuality, why is it a "sin" (indeed a "deadly sin" the term Butker used) for homosexual people to do so? Why was my friend in law school, a devout Catholic himself who happened to be gay, made to feel unwelcome at his church? Did he deserve that? To me it's a disgrace he was deemed a "sinner" for the particular way he desired to express himself.

I for one would not presume to judge what is sinful and what is not, except in obvious instances where something is harmful to other people. And I take umbrage to the attempted softening and excusing of anti-gay attitudes -- not directed at you personally.

To be honest I have never fully understood why homosexuality is considered to be such a sin. Or rather - I know of reasons that make better logical than emotional sense to me.

I would note that there are differences between heterosexual & homosexual relations that are not minor. The first is something my dad talks about. My dad believes in natural law - that whether something is right or wrong depends on whether its results are good or bad: if you get a bad outcome it is because you have done something incorrectly. By this understanding the relationship between homosexuality and AIDS is an indication that homosexuality is incorrect/wrong - and because natural law is identified with divine law - God giving us rules so by following them we do not harm ourselves and others by breaking the natural law - something is a sin because it is incorrect/wrong. I don't find this argument totally persuasive, but I think it is a point.

Furthermore, as I wrote in a similar conversation, oddly enough a year ago almost to the day (May 25):

"There are two categories of things that are wrong.

"The first are actions that are inherently malicious and harmful to others: stealing, murder etc.

"The second class of wrong actions are acts that are right but are done in the wrong way - in ways contrary to their purpose which prevent the purpose from being achieved. In the traditional view, sex has the purpose of procreation. Being a practicing homosexual is inherently contrary to the purpose of having children, and is therefore wrong because it goes against the purpose of sex.

"Actions of the second class are always wrong, but are only morally culpable if the person is aware that it is wrong." [slightly edited]

In response to your question regarding your friend's experience: In the proper understanding of the Church's teaching the sin is in not in being gay, in naturally having desires of that kind, but in acting upon those desires. If your friend was a practicing homosexual, then he was by the Church's teaching living in sin, and so should not have been encouraged in that choice by his church. (Whether it was right that he was made to feel unwelcome depends on what that exactly entailed - whether what he underwent was along the lines of charitable admonition or of personal hatred.) If he, as a devout Catholic who happened to be gay, was not a practicing homosexual, he did not deserve to feel unwelcome at his church and his church was at fault.

A last point concerning your last paragraph: the idea of some things being sinful is not designed only to protect ourselves from hurting others, but also to protect ourselves from hurting ourselves. We should not presume to judge the souls of others - judge not lest you be judged - but it is imperative that we judge what is or what is not sinful in general in order that we might know what we ought to do and not do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

double post

[Peter_Spaeth]

God made gays too, my friend. How do you explain that? And who said the only purpose of sex was procreation? Probably 99.9 percent of heterosexual relations do not result in pregnancy. Man, it's 2024. Live and let live and don't call people sinners for being themselves. AIDS as proof of the evil of homosexuality? What a crock. Ever heard of syphillis?

And yes, I don't know, but presume my friend was practicing, and knowing how gutsy he was, I am sure if officials of his church had asked he would have said so. Shame on them for ostracizing a perfectly fine man.

BTW do you have the courage of your convictions? Would you tell a gay person to his or her face you thought their lifestyle was sin?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

John, a sincere and well-written post.

I would say this. If it's acceptable for heterosexual people to express their sexuality, why is it a "sin" (indeed a "deadly sin" the term Butker used) for homosexual people to do so? Why was my friend in law school, a devout Catholic himself who happened to be gay, made to feel unwelcome at his church? Did he deserve that? To me it's a disgrace he was deemed a "sinner" for expressing his own desires. I hope the world has changed since then, but I read about Mike Johnson and I wonder if it really has.

I for one would not presume to judge what is sinful and what is not, except in obvious instances where something is harmful to other people. And I take umbrage to the attempted softening and excusing of anti-gay attitudes -- not directed at you personally.

Different John responding, but I am a middle-age Catholic who would say this: humans cannot choose to change what God has said regarding what is a sin and what is not. They can choose to live the faith that their god has espoused or follow a different god or no god at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol..._homosexuality

The wikipedia page is pretty good at being even-handed when it comes to this subject.

I read the transcript of Butker's speech and though that over half was aimed at Cafeteria Catholics both in laypersons and in clergy, and the inability for clergy to even advocate for the faith accurately.

[Carter08]

As a Catholic I firmly reject the concept that being gay is a sin. The Catholic Church has quite a few sins on its hands over many years in this arena it should account for before it judges others. That’s just my opinion.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Different John responding, but I am a middle-age Catholic who would say this: humans cannot choose to change what God has said regarding what is a sin and what is not. They can choose to live the faith that their god has espoused or follow a different god or no god at all.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol..._homosexuality



The wikipedia page is pretty good at being even-handed when it comes to this subject.



I read the transcript of Butker's speech and though that over half was aimed at Cafeteria Catholics both in laypersons and in clergy, and the inability for clergy to even advocate for the faith accurately.

John, everything you say makes sense. Unfortunately, I have not heard directly from God, and so am left to rely on those humans who have. And since humans often make mistakes and rarely all agree, it is hard for me to take everything as set out by the Church. Couldn't someone have misunderstood God's Word, or written it down wrong?

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[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Different John responding, but I am a middle-age Catholic who would say this: humans cannot choose to change what God has said regarding what is a sin and what is not. They can choose to live the faith that their god has espoused or follow a different god or no god at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol..._homosexuality

The wikipedia page is pretty good at being even-handed when it comes to this subject.

I read the transcript of Butker's speech and though that over half was aimed at Cafeteria Catholics both in laypersons and in clergy, and the inability for clergy to even advocate for the faith accurately.

I've heard the "sex is intended for procreation" line of reasoning before when discussion homosexuality. If homosexuals should remain chaste because their sex cannot lead to procreation, shouldn't it follow that women past menopause should remain chaste? Or anyone, male or female, who are unable to have children for some reason?

Not asking this as a attack, just wondering if there's a response out there.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by John1941

I'm neither particularly knowledgeable nor particularly invested in this debate, but as a TLM Catholic who has run track with several people who are currently going to Benedictine I do have a few small points I'd like to make.

There is a distinction between believing that homosexuality is a deadly sin and hating the LGBTQ+. Granted, this is a distinction that is often ignored, but it is a real distinction. I am a devout Catholic and do not disagree with the Church's teaching that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time I am an unreserved fan of people such as Alan Turing, Edward Gorey, Oliver Sacks, W.H. Auden, etc. Hating people you believe are sinners is not Christian. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a bit of a cliche, but I believe it is true.

I am neither a woman nor married and don't have strong opinions about whether women should be stay-at-home-moms. I do know that my mom is very smart, a stay-at-home mom, a federal law clerk before that, and she believes she has chosen the better part. For whatever that's worth.

My personal opinion is that motherhood is the highest calling for a woman, but not their only possible calling. Women (obviously) have talents too, and I think it is a good thing to use the talents God has given you. I'm not sure what that should look like in practice, but thankfully as a high-schooler I don't need to know yet.

I don't have strong feelings about either the way other people live their lives or the opinions they hold, as long as they are not hateful. I can understand people disagreeing with Butker's opinions, but I personally think it is a misreading to think they are hateful.

I prefer thinking about and arguing about baseball & music & books, not politics; I've said enough or more than enough (I'm a verbose person).

Peace, y'all.

John, if this comes across as old fashioned or condescending, I apologize. I think your parents should be very proud that they raised someone who can articulate his thoughts in the manner that you have. That you are able to do this while still in high school bodes well for the Republic.

This said, I don't think it is fair for people to ask you to defend the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by bk400

John, if this comes across as old fashioned or condescending, I apologize. I think your parents should be very proud that they raised someone who can articulate his thoughts in the manner that you have. That you are able to do this while still in high school bodes well for the Republic.

This said, I don't think it is fair for people to ask you to defend the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Thanks - my parents are very proud . I hope to do my best to make America a land of arguing, not quarreling.

And yes - defending the teachings of the Catholic Church on this subject is not something I'm qualified to do. Because I hadn't seen an explanation of the Church's reasoning in this thread, and it's relevant to the discussion, I thought I would share my understanding of it, but I don't care to defend it to the bitter end.