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  #301  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
I have humanity, but I'm also realistic. My vaccine card is nearly 20 years old. It has Smallpox, Polio, Tet-Dipth, Typhoid, Meningitis, Adenovirus, Plague #1, Plague #2, Rubella and a lot more that I just can't read - and some of them more than once. I don't know what most of that stuff even is. I bet you the Army still vaccinates against those same things today - 20 years later (especially for their hospital workers).

And here is where I'm realistic. A vaccine (even if 100% effective) is not going to make a pandemic end. If the Army still vaccinates against those diseases listed above, and I'm pretty sure they do, it's for one reason: they never went away. But if you (and others) want to think this pandemic is just going to go away with some magical vaccine, by all means believe that.
Polio and smallpox were essentially eradicated. It can happen. Realistically it may not because too many will hold out, but it can still be greatly greatly reduced.
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  #302  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:04 PM
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Instead of trying to distract us by lifting restrictions, I wish they just would've gone golfing!
I sure could go for a mean tweet and some $1.97 gas right now. But I heard 'ol Joe was going to put Hunter on that. He's a pipe expert don't you know?
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  #303  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:06 PM
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Polio and smallpox were essentially eradicated. It can happen.
Essentially eradicated? But they do still exist, no?
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  #304  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:08 PM
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US has not had a polio case for 40 plus years.

As to smallpox
The last naturally occurring case of smallpox was reported in 1977. In 1980, the World Health Organization declared that smallpox had been eradicated. Currently, there is no evidence of naturally occurring smallpox transmission anywhere in the world.
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  #305  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:12 PM
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US has not had a polio case for 40 plus years.
Depends on how you look at it. The US hasn't had a case originate in the US in over 40 years. But surely you know that cases have been brought into the US by foreign travelers?
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  #306  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:15 PM
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In 1980, the World Health Organization declared that smallpox had been eradicated.
In January of 2020, the World Health Origination also decarded that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission of Covid. But if the WHO is a source for information for you, I won't argue.
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  #307  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:17 PM
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Depends on how you look at it. The US hasn't had a case originate in the US in over 40 years. But surely you know that cases have been brought into the US by foreign travelers?
A few, yes.
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  #308  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:18 PM
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In January of 2020, the World Health Origination also decarded that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission of Covid. But if the WHO is a source for information for you, I won't argue.

There must be some right wing organization that made the same declaration.
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  #309  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:22 PM
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It's amazing what some will believe!

Just a week or so ago, Fauci and sleepy Joe were telling people to double mask then magically, just like that, the vaccines have cured everyone and masks are no longer required?!?!?

How some can't connect the dots despite what's right in front of their noses, is simply mindboggling.
I must say it is pretty pathetic that you are quoting the OC (obese clown) or if you prefer PVCB&S (Paranoid, vindictive cowardly bully and simpleton) with your "Sleepy Joe" comment.
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  #310  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:26 PM
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And as for smallpox, do you think there could be live viruses in labs somewhere that could somehow be "let loose?"

I've also heard about somewhere (maybe it was Russia) where the tundra was thawing and they thought that it could be transmitted via frozen corpses that died a century (or more) ago as they thaw. That was a few years ago, I don't know what happened with that.
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  #311  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
And as for smallpox, do you think there could be live viruses in labs somewhere that could somehow be "let loose?"

I've also heard about somewhere (maybe it was Russia) where the tundra was thawing and they thought that it could be transmitted via frozen corpses that died a century (or more) ago as they thaw. That was a few years ago, I don't know what happened with that.
I would guess there is some in one or more labs, somewhere. Perhaps the CDC, perhaps Russia, perhaps both. As to whether it's a threat, I don't know.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-16-2021 at 09:38 PM.
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  #312  
Old 05-16-2021, 09:59 PM
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Default Smallpox

Smallpox is interesting as there is no animal vector..... you have to catch it from another person (or from a lab). The virus does exist in three places in the world under "ultra high security isolation measures"..... the CDC in Atlanta, Geneva, Switzerland, and Moscow, Russia. There had been serious discussion about getting rid of those but distrust among "friends" will not allow that. Plus the thought that the virus may be needed in the future to develop vaccines or for research. The sad truth is that for over 40 years if scientists wanted to create a killer virus that could wipe out most of the world they could do it in a lab with recombinant DNA. So far they have restrained themselves..... so there is one more thing to look out for like an asteroid or whatever has us in the crosshairs today!
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  #313  
Old 05-17-2021, 04:34 AM
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Polio and smallpox were essentially eradicated. It can happen. Realistically it may not because too many will hold out, but it can still be greatly greatly reduced.


Don't forget the flu! It's disappeared in 2021. We did it guys.

I just can't believe we've finally FOUND a cure for a virlent form of the common cold!

Science is progressing at a rapid pace
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  #314  
Old 05-17-2021, 06:22 AM
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You've got it all figured out Dale. Now tell me the flaws in the studies. Oh wait, science is just part of the conspiracy, damn I forgot.
I assume you are referring to peer reviewed studies where the peer, if he/she doesn't like the result because it doesn't jive with the narrative nor fit the agenda, is tossed out?
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  #315  
Old 05-17-2021, 07:50 AM
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I have humanity, but I'm also realistic. My vaccine card is nearly 20 years old. It has Smallpox, Polio, Tet-Dipth, Typhoid, Meningitis, Adenovirus, Plague #1, Plague #2, Rubella and a lot more that I just can't read - and some of them more than once. I don't know what most of that stuff even is. I bet you the Army still vaccinates against those same things today - 20 years later (especially for their hospital workers).


Why did you get those vaccines if you didn't know what they were or why you were getting them?

Last edited by packs; 05-17-2021 at 07:51 AM.
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  #316  
Old 05-17-2021, 08:01 AM
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I assume you are referring to peer reviewed studies where the peer, if he/she doesn't like the result because it doesn't jive with the narrative nor fit the agenda, is tossed out?
Feel free to point out the flaws instead of spewing your BS and agenda driven soundbites. Ironically, your post is describing yourself to a tee -- because the studies don't fit YOUR narrative, you apparently reject them even though I am sure you haven't read them.
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  #317  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:01 AM
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Feel free to point out the flaws instead of spewing your BS and agenda driven soundbites. Ironically, your post is describing yourself to a tee -- because the studies don't fit YOUR narrative, you apparently reject them even though I am sure you haven't read them.
You do you, Peter, and I'll do me. How's that?

Eight people from the New York Yankees organization tested positive, despite having been fully vaccinated.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/s...t-to-know.html

Family left with questions after Brampton senior's death.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...ive-days-later

Langley-area man loses 2 metres of intestine after a blood clot following his AstraZeneca jab

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...fect-1.6027830

Some healthcare workers refuse to take COVID-19 vaccine, even with priority access.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...vaccine-access

I could list dozens more, and you know that, but what's the point as I'll just be called a conspiracy theorist and a strawman arguer or whatever other names you can come up with to shame me for pointing out the other side of the story that is rarely, if ever talked about, unless you look it up for yourself.
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  #318  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:02 AM
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Why did you get those vaccines if you didn't know what they were or why you were getting them?
I was a soldier. I wasn't given an option. I did what I was told to do and didn't give it any thought at the time. Besides, most of those (if not all) I'd already had as a kid anyway.
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  #319  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:23 AM
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You do you, Peter, and I'll do me. How's that?

Eight people from the New York Yankees organization tested positive, despite having been fully vaccinated.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/s...t-to-know.html

Family left with questions after Brampton senior's death.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...ive-days-later

Langley-area man loses 2 metres of intestine after a blood clot following his AstraZeneca jab

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...fect-1.6027830

Some healthcare workers refuse to take COVID-19 vaccine, even with priority access.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...vaccine-access

I could list dozens more, and you know that, but what's the point as I'll just be called a conspiracy theorist and a strawman arguer or whatever other names you can come up with to shame me for pointing out the other side of the story that is rarely, if ever talked about, unless you look it up for yourself.
I have never denied that there have been adverse effects. That is true of virtually all medical treatments. People bleed to death from common over the counter medications, or suffer liver damage. You, on the other hand, have denied efficacy in the face of numerous published studies. So show me the evidence that the vaccines do not have the claimed efficacy.

The question here, the value judgment, is the balance of efficacy (seriouses illness prevented and lives saved) versus adverse effects. But one can only have that discussion based on the facts and the science, not agenda.
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  #320  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:26 AM
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  #321  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:30 AM
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PS I think the other side of the equation absolutely should be discussed. I have no issue with that. What I have an issue with is distorting and denying the positive side.

We make the same judgments about many things in life. We know that X number of people are going to die or be seriously injured in car accidents every year. So do we ban driving?
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  #322  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:30 AM
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Great Frank. Something else for me to worry about
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  #323  
Old 05-17-2021, 10:21 AM
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This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.
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  #324  
Old 05-17-2021, 10:25 AM
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This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.
I agree, minds aren't going to be changed.

As far as a resolution, I think the best resolution is for everyone to worry about themselves and not what others are doing. Do what you think is right for you.
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  #325  
Old 05-17-2021, 10:34 AM
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It's a discussion, there doesn't have to be a resolution.
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  #326  
Old 05-17-2021, 10:51 AM
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It's a discussion, there doesn't have to be a resolution.
Trying to force compliance is not a discussion.
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  #327  
Old 05-17-2021, 11:12 AM
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Never mind. He would never get it anyway.
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  #328  
Old 05-17-2021, 05:29 PM
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This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.
Thanks for the many inquiries, still available...
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  #329  
Old 05-18-2021, 09:56 AM
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If Floyd Mayweather was administering the vaccine, would you still want to be jabbed.....................once or twice.
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  #330  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:19 PM
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I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?
That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.
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  #331  
Old 05-18-2021, 02:55 PM
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That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.
The argument you post is missing in important detail, especially in regards to herd immunity. Herd Immunity is not caused by vaccination alone, but natural immunity plus vaccination for those who do not have that natural immunity. It is incorrect presumption that a virus cannot mutate due to vaccination, it can mutate either way. In the classical sense, a vaccinated person often becomes a carrier.

Now the current vaccines used against covid in North America are not the classical type, and they are not designed to provide immunity. They are designed to provide a decreased percentage for the spike protein to bind to ACE2, thus lowering viral load in which the viral side effects are lower or not noticed by the person. Even in this design, they still say that a person who is vaccinated can still become infected and still spread the virus, albeit at a lower rate.

The pressure on the virus due to the operating environment is what causes a virus to mutate. The limiting factors are the inability to spread, be it from a vaccinated person's increased resilience to the spike protein, or a recovered person with immunity. In this case, a virus may mutate to overcome those limitations. Now there are various outcomes of our current environment, as we have 4 (or 5) groups of people:
1. Those who have not had an infection but are not immune
2. Those who have recovered from an infection and have immunological memory (the body recognises the virus as well as spike protein)
3. Those who are vaccinated but have not had a previous infection.
4. Those who have recovered, have the immunological memory, and are vaccinated.
5. Those who are naturally immune

(I think this is all of the possibilities at this time, if I forgot one let me know)

So from the above, we can potentially ignore #5 because there is no way to know how a mutant would effect them. For the others the situation can vary depending on the reason why the mutant came into being.

If a mutation occurs where a portion of the virus changes but it still binds to ACE2, then it will effect group 3 more than 2 or 4 because group 3 does not have immunological memory of the virus, only the spike protein

If a mutation occurs where the spike protein changes OR binds to something other than ACE2 but the virus itself largely remains unchanged, then it will effect group 3 more than group 2 and 4, because group 2 would have the memory of the virus.

The moral of the story is that vaccines do not (and have not) ever stopped a virus from mutating. Now there is some tedpidation in the literature I have read that vaccinating such large portions of a population gives the population too common of an infection vector. Rather than longer periods in the past of natural infection and a vaccine coming much later tends to give a varied type of immunity in a population, which creates a more difficult environment for a virus to adapt to.

This virus is new, and the methods that governments have been using to contain it are new. Whether you get the vaccine or not, we won't know how it plays out until it plays out. And even then, it isn't like we can know if we did it right, because we can't have a do-over to try something else.
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  #332  
Old 05-18-2021, 02:58 PM
G1911 G1911 is online now
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I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
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Old 05-18-2021, 03:01 PM
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  #334  
Old 05-18-2021, 04:28 PM
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I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
Excellent, well written post.
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Old 05-18-2021, 04:32 PM
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Excellent, well written post.
X2!

Excellent post, G1911.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
Best post within this thread by far....

ESPECIALLY points three and four.
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  #337  
Old 05-19-2021, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
I think we can all agree that sound decisions should be based on sound input in the decision making process. Your reasoning for not getting the vaccine, while well written, is not based on complete input. There is one major point which you omit. I’ll go over it plus another questionable point.

“(T)he reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease.” That is one of the reasons. The other reason is for a person to minimize his/her potential of passing the virus to another person. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what about the people you infect? Can you say the same about them?

“Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air?” Yes, what of it? Do you expect a mask to completely absorb your breath so that none of your warm, moist breath condenses when it hits the cold air? Sorry, but that’s a rather specious reason to argue against wearing a mask. The reason for the mask is to reduce the distance that a person's breath will travel, thus minimizing the potential of a person infecting someone else. Not 100% perfect, but minimizing the distance the virus may travel from an infected person is important. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what if you get infected and don’t know it? Isn’t wearing a mask a small price to pay if it can help keep you from infecting someone else?

“States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without.” Do you have a source for this claim? This reference completely refutes that claim.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0249891

Lastly, you say you have a 99.8% chance of surviving getting Covid-19. Let me point out, that your chances of surviving the covid shot are greater than that. But, "what are the long-term effects the vaccine will have on me?", you ask. Right now, the prevailing thought is that it shouldn't have any. And, honestly, this thought may change. Do you know what the long-term effects of getting Covid-19 are? Is the prevailing thought that there is no chance of long-term effects of getting Covid-19?
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  #338  
Old 05-19-2021, 11:10 AM
G1911 G1911 is online now
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Originally Posted by AustinMike View Post
I think we can all agree that sound decisions should be based on sound input in the decision making process. Your reasoning for not getting the vaccine, while well written, is not based on complete input. There is one major point which you omit. I’ll go over it plus another questionable point.

“(T)he reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease.” That is one of the reasons. The other reason is for a person to minimize his/her potential of passing the virus to another person. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what about the people you infect? Can you say the same about them?

“Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air?” Yes, what of it? Do you expect a mask to completely absorb your breath so that none of your warm, moist breath condenses when it hits the cold air? Sorry, but that’s a rather specious reason to argue against wearing a mask. The reason for the mask is to reduce the distance that a person's breath will travel, thus minimizing the potential of a person infecting someone else. Not 100% perfect, but minimizing the distance the virus may travel from an infected person is important. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what if you get infected and don’t know it? Isn’t wearing a mask a small price to pay if it can help keep you from infecting someone else?

“States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without.” Do you have a source for this claim? This reference completely refutes that claim.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0249891

Lastly, you say you have a 99.8% chance of surviving getting Covid-19. Let me point out, that your chances of surviving the covid shot are greater than that. But, "what are the long-term effects the vaccine will have on me?", you ask. Right now, the prevailing thought is that it shouldn't have any. And, honestly, this thought may change. Do you know what the long-term effects of getting Covid-19 are? Is the prevailing thought that there is no chance of long-term effects of getting Covid-19?


1 - Reason for vaccine
No. I believe in self-responsibility. I am responsible for myself, you are responsible for yourself. If you believe Covid is a serious threat to your health that requires definitive action to reduce, then you may go get the vaccine, and more power to you for making your decision in the way you see fit to your health and life. If your vaccine works, then you are at no risk. I, however am not responsible for your health or healthcare decisions. One should generally not interact with others if they are sick, not spit on food in the grocery store, etc. but this does not extend to me taking experimental drugs, to which the manufacturers were shielded form any liability whatsoever and were not fully tested, to make you feel safer.


2- State by state data is publicly available. Note that California and New York, for example, have not done so great on the whole, even with the most restrictive measures impeding on assembly, even seeing ones family and friends as well as mandated masks with a high compliance. No science before 2020 suggested surgical masks did anything to stop airborne viruses, and studies reported the exact opposite. it even came on most masks packaging that they were not designed for this usage. The CDC and Fauci initially told us masks were pointless because of this science, until they pulled a complete 180 a couple weeks in.


3 - Yes, just putting on a mask is too big of a price to pay. I have watched for 14 months now as my state has ordered everyone to wear a mask, which was quickly followed by further edicts (with no vote whatsoever, of course) as the fear-mongering was stroked 24/7. Don't go out, do not assemble (unless one is assembling for an overtly political purpose supported by the state's leadership), do not hug your grandmother, my family Thanksgiving truly was an illegal act. The result has been catastrophic, basic liberties stripped away by county health officials at their whim to any standard they choose, businesses forced to closed as the state mandates people's decisions for them and ruined livelihoods. I will not be participating in this madness. Again, we can even assume masks magically started to block airborne viruses in 2020, I am still not responsible for your health. If you are scared, get your vaccine, and you can stay home or wear what the state tells you too. That is your decision to make, not mine.


4- I do not know what the long term affects are of getting Covid 19. I do not know what the long term affects are of this vaccine. How is one unknown future possible risk preferable to the other, if both are an unknown quantity? If I get the vaccine and there is some unknown future risk, then I will carry that risk. If I do not get the vaccine, I may or may not get Covid, and if Covid has some unknown future risk, I then may or may not have that risk as a result.


5 - We do not know my chances of surviving the Covid shot, because we do not capture death data in the same way as it for Covid. If we applied the governments standard, within 2 weeks of Covid or suspected Covid, there would be an awful lot of vaccine deaths (most of which probably would have little to do with the vaccine, because this standard assumes that X will always cause Y if X precedes Y, which is absurd). If it is greater, and I do not especially doubt that it is greater, I just don't believe this claim without statistics accumulated in the same way on logical principle, then the difference is still negligible. Counting Covid "deaths' in a way to produce as many as possible (x preceded Y, therefore X was proximate cause of Y), they still produce a death rate that is almost 0 for my age group. It's probably better for my survival odds to take a flu shot every year too, but the difference is so minute that I don't see it as worth bothering with. "The prevailing thought is that it shouldn't have any" does not mean anything, it is an unknown because it has not been fully tested, it was rushed out the door and immunity for any side-affects, no matter how severe, immediately granted.
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Old 05-19-2021, 11:29 AM
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Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?

Last edited by packs; 05-19-2021 at 11:55 AM.
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  #340  
Old 05-19-2021, 12:03 PM
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Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?
To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:05 PM
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Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?
Yes, me not taking an experimental drug means I am likely to commit homicide. This kind of bullshit is exactly why I have 0 interest in participating in this madness. This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:08 PM
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To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.
Yep, not taking a vaccine leads to us youth committing vehicular homicide. Totally reasonable perspective. Stellar argument.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:08 PM
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Yep, not taking a vaccine leads to us youth committing vehicular homicide. Totally reasonable perspective. Stellar argument.
For a smart guy you are completely missing his point.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:09 PM
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Yes, me not taking an experimental drug means I am likely to commit homicide. This kind of bullshit is exactly why I have 0 interest in participating in this madness. This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.
I was just distilling what you said to it's fundamentals, which is you make your decision for you and that's how it is for everyone else.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by packs View Post
I was just distilling what you said to it's fundamentals, which is you make your decision for you and that's how it is for everyone else.
No, I said I make my choice for me, you make your choice for you. If you get vaccinated, I present no risk to you. This has nothing to do with intentionally murdering people, as in the scenario you described wherein I run someone over. I do not have to take an untested vaccine for something that poses almost 0 statistical risk because that suits your narrative.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:14 PM
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Haha that's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter if your decision poses a risk to me because you made it and that's how it is.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by packs View Post
Haha that's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter if your decision poses a risk to me because you made it and that's how it is.
If you are worried, get vaccinated. What risk do I possibly pose to you? Are you under the belief that your vaccine only works if I am also vaccinated?
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.
So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?
I think it's a factor that should have a place in the thought process, I would not force anyone to do anything.
Earlier in the pandemic it pissed me off, for example, that many young people couldn't even give up their parties for the sake of contributing to protecting the rest of us. The nature of this disease is that the young aren't very much at risk but the older are. But the young can expose the old, particularly given asymptomatic transmission. To me that suggests the young bear some responsibility to society.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-19-2021 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:23 PM
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The risk has been explained. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting to get the vaccine. But I do have a problem with that person standing next to me without a mask on. If you mask up, no issue.

Last edited by packs; 05-19-2021 at 12:24 PM.
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