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  #951  
Old 03-07-2023, 07:22 AM
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2 x mid 1920 boxer cards, dont know which set they are from, the backs are blank
Attachment 561072

c. 1923-24 Willards Chocolates V137

Canadian issue.

From a series of 56 boxers
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  #952  
Old 03-07-2023, 09:13 AM
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Those two cards are from the mid-1920s Willard's Chocolates set (V137), an unnumbered, blank-backed 56-card issue from Canada. They can be found in both sepia or black and white. Biggest names in the set are Dempsey, Jeffries, Fitzsimmons and Ketchel.
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  #953  
Old 03-14-2023, 09:25 PM
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Picked up these 3 Red Sun's from a fellow collector. Puts me at 34/50 after ~18 months.

T226's are not from 1908; I would be utterly shocked if they date before Q2 of 1910, when Jack Johnson seems to have signed some deals with American Lithography. I have no idea how this myth started; PSA is still endorsing it today. Most claims to fact beyond the checklist about Red Suns do not seem to align with evidence or even reasonable deductions.

The cards have glossy fronts that damage very easily; slabs tend to obscure this. I see how these cards would get a 3.5 from a grader on a bad day with the new standards, or a 5 on a good day, but after crack out the Willete is the nicest of them. Willets has a deep scratch on the left, and a small corner wrinkle. I'd call that one a 4 and Willete the 5. Willette and Willets were the top POP's.

Jimmy Gardner is the 'get' for me, as he is a T218 subject which is what led me to the other T sets. Jimmy was a very, very good boxer. His brother George was the Light Heavy champ for a time, and another brother, Billy, was an obscure pro boxer. Joe Thomas, who appears in T224/T229, was his brother in law. Quite a family. Johnny Willetts was pretty good, one of the many northeast no decision fighters who appears to have had the better of it more often than not. He appears in series 2 of the T225's. Kid Willette is pretty obscure. I cannot think of another card he had off the top of my head.
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  #954  
Old 03-16-2023, 12:52 PM
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Yeah, 1908 makes no sense. The images alone disprove it.



Jim Jeffries did not look like this in 1908. He looked like the one in the bowler hat:



He didn't get the bald and in shape thing going until early 1910 as he trained for the Johnson fight.
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  #955  
Old 03-16-2023, 01:33 PM
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Yeah, 1908 makes no sense. The images alone disprove it.

Jim Jeffries did not look like this in 1908. He looked like the one in the bowler hat:

He didn't get the bald and in shape thing going until early 1910 as he trained for the Johnson fight.

Evan Jones' 1993 book has them as 1908 (and he only has 46 confirmed subjects, missing the 4 black 'puglistic' subjects). The 1956 ACC gives no date and a set size of 50, though that may be taken from the back of the cards, listed at a then-high 30 cents a card price. I don't know if Burdick and friends actually had a checklist. Jones' book is all over the place quality wise, but the missing subjects in his checklist might indicate the SP theory.

PSA's checklist only lists the 46 whitey cards (https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...position/11395). Bizarre, as their POP report includes a Johnson in a 2.5 to make 47 different they have graded, even if PSA refuses to acknowledge reality outside of their slabs. They still list it as a 1908 set everywhere. POP report has a "Kid Williams" card I suspect is a Kid Willette. I don't think anyone at PSA knows a single thing about T boxing cards. I can't tell where there information comes from - for baseball their system for older stuff relies heavily on the Standard Catalog, which makes sense. I don't know where the origin for their boxing database came from.

SGC's POP report (https://gosgc.com/pop-report/result/...T226%29/Boxing) is difficult to take seriously. Some sets are totally messed up and the old data is not there no matter what option you elect, like T220 Silver. T226 Red Sun appears to be all inclusive, but their datasets are so horrible that who knows if it's actually accurate. Their date of 1910 is also not tied to any actual primary source, but it's plausible and it's probably 1910 or 1911.
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  #956  
Old 03-16-2023, 05:51 PM
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Was a bit nervous about this one with the eBay 'authenticity' program, since it was listed as "Young Corbett" in the auction title.

I don't think I would agree with this being EX-MT due to the back stain, but who cares about condition for items this rare. PSA shows a 6, a 5, a 5 MC and a 2 in their pop report; SGC turns up nada. I only have a picture of the 6 and the 5(MC), plus the 8 card proof sheet. The 5 I haven't seen is in butcher35435's set on the registry. The 2 isn't on a registry set. I'd love to see images of these or any raw ones.
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  #957  
Old 03-22-2023, 06:51 PM
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Default ďOrchid ManĒ

A really cool recent pick up, just arrived in the mail yesterday. The bottom left corner states 1914, which would make Georgeís 20 years old at the time. He actually looks more like 15 or 16 in the photo. Georgeís was said to have boxed at 145 to 175 in his career. Iíd say heís probably closer to 145 in this picture.
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  #958  
Old 03-25-2023, 06:48 PM
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10th of the year, but I'm pretty sure this is the last silver Corbett I will get this year. Probably ever (unless somebody wants to whip one out and send my way!). I can't account for more than 5 non-proofs at most. I hope there are more out there to enjoy.

Thank you to my friend for letting this one go to my little collection. In my personal opinion with both in hand, this 5MC is better than the 6. They have very similar edges and corners, the MC is only slightly worse centering, but it lacks the staining on the back of the 6 and the quality of the coloring in the image is better. All of the Corbetts I have seen an image of are in very nice condition (the top-down centering is usually bad, it is a top of the sheet card), in contrast to the Donovan's. Unusual attribute of this particular card.
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  #959  
Old 03-27-2023, 04:50 PM
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Got this card in this week that pairs well with the Corbett. Jackson and Corbett were boxing instructors at different boxing clubs in San Francisco. In 1891 the rival instructors fought a 61 round bout without a decision when neither fighter was able to continue for the 62nd round. Sounds like it was one heck of a battle

Jackson was a great fighter, maybe the best heavyweight of the lineal era to never hold the world championship, but he lived an interesting life too. The story I have always heard is that he got into boxing while working as a deckhand in his teens, when he single handedly quelled a mutiny with his fists. Probably exaggerated, but there are numerous primary accounts of odd and colorful incidents surrounding him.
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  #960  
Old 03-28-2023, 10:15 PM
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The image is from Gans' audition for the original stage version of The Karate Kid.
I always thought that Hong Kong Phooey thing was such a weird pose that they had to be making it up. I was wrong.

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  #961  
Old 03-30-2023, 10:51 PM
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I always thought that Hong Kong Phooey thing was such a weird pose that they had to be making it up. I was wrong.
Never get tired of this photo. Still don't know what he was doing, or why but it's hilarious. This card, the E77 Kaufman with half his top inexplicably missing, the E79 Sharkey 'bare ass', there's some funny old pictures and artwork.
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  #962  
Old 03-30-2023, 11:21 PM
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Cards 148 and 149 in my master set. Overpaid a little, but that's okay as it's getting less common to spot the combinations I still need, and this is the most difficult set to trade for as nobody cares about the 10 backs and the checklist is annoying to compare to collections.
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  #963  
Old 04-02-2023, 11:38 PM
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Unnumbered, but the golds are given as having a print run of 9 from the 2010 Ringside issue. I won the three eBay listings from the big run listed for the fighters from my collecting era for just a few bucks. Love the Turkey Red's.
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  #964  
Old 04-10-2023, 06:28 PM
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Default Jackie Brown - Daily Dispatch

This just arrived today after a few weeks in the mail. I have no idea if these are relatively common, or not. I just found it pretty interesting. I would guess circa 1932 -1934 due to this was when he was the Flyweight champion. It looks like he fought Young Perez on a couple of different occasions.
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  #965  
Old 04-11-2023, 09:50 PM
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46/50 Tolstoi backs down, and 628/632 for what I suspect is every printed front/back combination. All the toughies, recognized and unrecognized, are done, just waiting for the last Tolstoi's I need to come up again and finish this one.
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  #966  
Old 04-12-2023, 02:14 PM
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They aren't easy Chad, but as is the case with so many boxing cards, rare and obscure go hand in hand. I have one I got several years ago. Haven't seen too many others. Is it in Seconds Out?

Greg, those gold Ringsides are nice. I picked up several of them for very cheap about two years ago. I think the company did itself a disservice by not formally numbering them.
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  #967  
Old 04-12-2023, 03:04 PM
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Greg, those gold Ringsides are nice. I picked up several of them for very cheap about two years ago. I think the company did itself a disservice by not formally numbering them.
Nelson was $1.25, the Turkey's $6.50. Kind of a shame this set evidently failed on the market, as far as I am aware it is the last serious attempt at a real boxing card set. We may never get another one.
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  #968  
Old 04-12-2023, 03:36 PM
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They aren't easy Chad, but as is the case with so many boxing cards, rare and obscure go hand in hand. I have one I got several years ago. Haven't seen too many others. Is it in Seconds Out?
I just checked my copy; Jones didn't have this card listed in Seconds Out.
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  #969  
Old 04-12-2023, 08:01 PM
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Default Turkey Reds

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Nelson was $1.25, the Turkey's $6.50. Kind of a shame this set evidently failed on the market, as far as I am aware it is the last serious attempt at a real boxing card set. We may never get another one.
If I recall correctly the Turkey Reds came in three colors. I believe they were red, gold and black. The gold and red each came in two different poses. I’ve only seen the black in a single pose.

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  #970  
Old 04-12-2023, 09:02 PM
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The onyx black cards were 1/1s. I bought one of them but I can't find a scan, so here's a gold one instead:

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  #971  
Old 04-13-2023, 11:44 AM
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I like the base design, but the Turkey's are right up my alley with the T9 fronts and the T220 backs. I really like the Onyx 1/1's but I haven't seen a Onyx Turkey come up for sale for one of the old timers that fits in with my collection. Hopefully one day, I'd like to get one as a type example. I have no idea what they would be worth; there are apparently less than 9 people that really care about the golds.

Most of the fighters have 2 cards, but some of the old timers only have 1 card, like Jeffries and Corbett.
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  #972  
Old 04-13-2023, 06:41 PM
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Default Turkey Reds

These are the 5 Johnson cards in the set. Iím guessing they consider these the side pose and the front pose, kinda like the T218 cards. I purchased these years ago when they first came out. I have a couple of scans where Gary sold a graded pair of the Johnson red types a few months ago for 85 a piece. The onyx Johnson was a bit pricey back when I purchased it from EBay. From my records I purchased it back in 2011.
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  #973  
Old 04-13-2023, 06:52 PM
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Default The Hawk!

I grew up a couple of hours outside of Cincinnati and was a big fan of “The Hawk”. He was the coolest, in my opinion. He was always looked at like the villain, but he was always willing to talk to fans. After he retired for many years I would see him at Reds fest in Cincinnati every November. He and his wife would always have a table set up next to one of the old Reds greats. I definitely miss those days.
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  #974  
Old 04-18-2023, 08:48 PM
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Picked it up a few months ago, but just got it back from being graded.
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  #975  
Old 04-20-2023, 04:04 PM
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Not sure I would call this a true 'card', but it's a cool item of an underrated great.
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  #976  
Old 04-22-2023, 10:22 AM
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Those UD lenticulars are amazing cards, just light years ahead of the 1960s-1970s 3-D cards. I picked up a Chavez back when they were released and the depth and quality of the illusion is incredible. I literally had to touch the surface to show my eye that it did not have real depth.
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  #977  
Old 04-22-2023, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
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Not sure I would call this a true 'card', but it's a cool item of an underrated great.
That's definately a card!
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  #978  
Old 04-29-2023, 07:17 PM
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Pulled out of a box this morning, so a nice box in my eye. Didn't get the relic card it guarantees alongside 1 auto, but got a 2nd auto instead. Sadly, the second one is a redemption for Dave Kingman that expired in 2016. The other box I opened had a Bouton auto and Gene Tierney relic, plus a image variant of Jerry West, which I think were pretty tough. Shame Golden Age died after 3 years, I think it was Panini's best issue.

Sometimes I think I might be wiser to open everything upon receipt instead of keeping a stash of boxes in my closet to open when the mood strikes.
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  #979  
Old 04-30-2023, 07:11 AM
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Nothing crazy here. Love these legends!
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  #980  
Old 05-02-2023, 10:49 AM
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I guess as you get more 'advanced' (age and card collecting), it takes a bit more to interest you:



N28 or A16 proof. Only one I've ever seen. It surfaced for sale years ago, vanished into a collection, then popped up in the April Lelands auction. It's pretty amazing looking in hand; wish it was a Sullivan
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  #981  
Old 05-02-2023, 12:25 PM
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I guess as you get more 'advanced' (age and card collecting), it takes a bit more to interest you:

N28 or A17 proof. Only one I've ever seen. It surfaced for sale years ago, vanished into a collection, then popped up in the April Lelands auction. It's pretty amazing looking in hand; wish it was a Sullivan
That is super awesome! Is it standard Ginter thickness or thin like a album cut?
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Old 05-02-2023, 04:53 PM
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it is thin but not skinned. David Rudd (Cycleback) documented the proof years ago. It is on his web site.

Here's more nuttiness from the same Lelands lot:

I was scanning the A16-A17 stuff from the lot and noticed something odd:

Here is an A16 page:



Typical. Now, here is a Joe Lannon cut:



Notice anything? Let me put them side by side:



Yup, the A16 doesn't cut down to a clean card. Also, the name is black on the A16 and brown on the cut. Hmm. Since there was a proof in the lot I thought maybe I had more proofs. Then I looked closely at the edges of the three 'A16' boxer cuts in the lot. All of them have borders that do not match the colors of the backgrounds on the A16 sheets. What has matching colors around the borders of the cards?



What I have is a cut from the G20 poster, not an A16 album. I checked the other two cuts and they also have brown type and do not match their A16 pages, so they are G20 cuts too:



Since there are only a few of the posters known, these cuts are rare as well. I can't fault Lelands for missing this, it is really subtle and I did not see it until I was putting the cuts over the images on the album pages to see if the cuts were full sized, but who the heck collected this group of A16-A17 pages, G20 cuts and a proof, and did they know what they had?
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  #983  
Old 05-02-2023, 05:13 PM
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But it gets even better than that. There were four cuts from the 2nd series album, allegedly. An anomaly on one of the Jack McGee cuts caught my eye:



The black print on the right side. It matches the McGee on the 2nd series poster where the La Blanche overlaps:



The 2nd McGee of the lot was cut narrower but in hand you can just see the tip of the corner of the La Blanche image. The Kerrigan and Patsey Duffy also match the poster's background colors. In other words, they are G21 cuts.
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  #984  
Old 05-02-2023, 05:50 PM
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Awesome stuff. Poster cuts can be really tough; I have some Iíve been trying for years to even find any other copies of known. Fun complement to a set
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  #985  
Old 05-02-2023, 06:23 PM
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Awesome stuff. Poster cuts can be really tough; I have some Iíve been trying for years to even find any other copies of known. Fun complement to a set
Want some G20 and G21 cuts, I'm game.
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  #986  
Old 05-02-2023, 06:49 PM
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Want some G20 and G21 cuts, I'm game.
Emailed you.

I have some T68 poster cuts from a poster otherwise unknown; some T29's from what I suspect was a thick cardboard display otherwise unknown, and this Tommy Ryan that is clearly from some kind of poster type product (not skinned, very different front stock to a normal card). This kind of stuff is fun to slot in alongside a set, a way to keep collecting after finishing a 'set'.

I remember the unique T227 poster cuts that appeared awhile back, those were pretty neat. Don't know where they ended up. There's presumably a number of still unknown posters that existed for these T and N sets waiting to be found.
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Old 05-02-2023, 07:45 PM
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Which is amazing to consider: 150 years down the line we still don't have this stuff fully catalogued.
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Old 05-02-2023, 08:14 PM
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Which is amazing to consider: 150 years down the line we still don't have this stuff fully catalogued.
It really is. 150 years of collecting, and about 50 years now since card collecting went mainstream in the sense that the general public has been aware that old cards can equal lots of $$$. But every year, we still find some stuff that nobody has seen before in the hobby. On the flip side, there's certainly a lot of great cards that were made but no copies survive today for us to find.




Since it's the pickup thread and I haven't been posting a pickup, here's a recent pickup from a friend of a card that went 96 years before being 'discovered'. It's the worst of the 5 known, but it's my desk card for the month. I'll crack it out when I file it away with my cards.
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Old 05-02-2023, 09:07 PM
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Speaking of cuts from unknown posters, there's this one with the N266 images that's never been resolved:

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Old 05-02-2023, 10:49 PM
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And here's the common ones seen, with no mystery to it:
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Old 05-04-2023, 01:48 PM
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Cards 35-38 for my set. Maybe it's just perception, but it really seems the percentage of cards graded in this set is abnormally high. Almost every card has had to be a crack out.

Hayes is one of the handful of boxers in the set who wasn't in T218. His rights were also used for T225-2, which is similarly rare though much less popular. Coulon was the best of the fighters, the Bantam champion for a few years.

I have cards 39 and 40 in the mail right now; 46 is probably the closest I will come. The heavy SP'ing and price bonus of the 5 black fighters makes it unlikely I will finish this set anytime soon. When I get to 46 I might look into having some reprints made of the other 4 so that I can use a binder without holes in it.
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Old 05-05-2023, 08:51 PM
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And #39 arrived today. Harry Lewis was probably the welterweight world champion when this set was issued. He found multiple opponents in a single day multiple times. He took the welterweight title in 1908, just three years after leaving the featherweight ranks. Lewis was once charged with manslaughter after he knocked out an opponent whose head hit the mat and died, the cased ended up in a fine. He relinquished the title to move to middleweight, and claimed he was a title holder in the chaos in the division left by Ketchell's death. I think his claim to the middleweight crown is rather dubious. His card is a common in every set he appears in, but he was a great boxer. Unlike baseball, great athletes can be had for the price of a common in boxing, which I appreciate.
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Old 05-08-2023, 11:48 PM
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Picked up a set not long ago, but that means I need all the cards again, with the other variation. Dempsey, sans lithographer line, crossed off. Love the backdrop art.
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Old 05-10-2023, 10:04 PM
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4 more T219's for my master set. Coulon and Jeannette are HLC Green backs, knocking me up to 44 of them. Klaus and Neil are Miners Extra's numbers 48 and 49, with only Jack (Twin) Sullivan to go of which there have been a couple overpriced ones on eBay sitting forever. Not quite that desperate yet...

Coulon was the Bantam champion when this set was issued. Klaus would take the middleweight title in a year or two. Jeannette was a heavyweight contender. Neil's career was over when the set came out but had been a bantam world champion years before.
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Old 05-13-2023, 04:05 PM
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Some progress in the N310 master set. I love the Bobby Burns name at bottom in the top left. PSA has the wrong year and the wrong fighter on their slip. There is no Tommy Burns in the set, Tommy was about 13-14 when this set was issued. It takes no research at all to know this set isn't from 1890; as the Corbett card bears a copyright date of 1894.

O'Donnell fought for middle and heavyweight titles in Australia and fought most of the top heavies of his time. He traveled with James Corbett as a sparring partner and exhibition opponent in the demonstrations popular at that time.

Myers was apparently the fastest running boxer of his time. He fought for some regional belts and he once held the great Jack McAuliffe to a draw in over 60 rounds in an 1889 fight for the lightweight title. That would seem to suggest he must have been a very good fighter. The original photograph this was based on has a man in the background and is more of a forest scene that has been redone for the Mayo card.
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  #996  
Old 05-13-2023, 06:16 PM
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Nice pickups Greg.
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Old 05-14-2023, 05:34 AM
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Tommy Burns...WTF?

On N310, talk about taking liberties with the artwork, they removed Hall's moustache. Here is one of the misprinted cards w/o the artwork and it shows him with stache; the sfache is gone on the full artwork card





These no-art ones are really rare. I am sooo pissed I passed on a Walcott at a show about 15 years ago.
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  #998  
Old 05-14-2023, 10:04 AM
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Tommy Burns...WTF?
Sometimes, it's almost like PSA has no idea what they're grading in boxing land. Sometimes I wish the graders just wouldn't do boxing; they struggle to even separate T218 and T220 for the subjects in both series even though the cards look completely different. They generally get it right in baseball, but boxing none of them seem to know anything about and shouldn't be authenticating such items.

Quote:
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On N310, talk about taking liberties with the artwork, they removed Hall's moustache. Here is one of the misprinted cards w/o the artwork and it shows him with stache; the sfache is gone on the full artwork card

These no-art ones are really rare. I am sooo pissed I passed on a Walcott at a show about 15 years ago.
This set is really difficult for me to checklist. There's multiple versions of the name at bottom cards, black-and-white's that are really rare, versions betraying some of the sepia but missing some 'layers' or some elements of the artwork, versions that are so heavily redone that they are a much darker reddish. There's at least 4-5 of what seem to be different types, maybe more, and separating some of them between what is just natural variance in printing a large run and what is the result of a genuine printing difference is difficult. For now I'm trying to do a set of 70 (35 name at top, 35 name at bottom) alongside however many very-different-looking cards I can find. Probably worth a full thread looking at each variant at some point. I'm struggling to ID a true master set's checklist still.
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Old 05-16-2023, 04:59 PM
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Picked these up off the BST about two weeks ago. They were listed as 1922 Caramelos la Colmena. Has anyone ever seen any other cards from this issue before?
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Old 05-21-2023, 12:56 AM
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4 contenders and gatekeepers for the heavyweight crown for my 70 card Mayo run.

Choyinski/Chonskia was a friend of Jack Johnson and a very small heavy who beat Johnson, Maher, fought draws with Jeffries and Sharkey.

Maher claimed the title in 1895 rather dubiously. He lost to most of the big heavies and beat a number of them, apparently hit hard as hell but had a weak chin.

Mitchell was a hyped up challenger for two of John L. Sullivan's big bouts, and held him to a draw in the second contest. He lost to Corbett as well.

Godfrey had a mostly losing record against significant competition. Fought Kilrain, Choyinski, Peter Jackson and others.
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