"Legendary" Paper Restoration in their Live Auction!

[calvindog]

Before:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=684&auctionid=811

After:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...100&category=1

"A small repair has been effected at the right side, and paper has been added to the extreme tip of each corner."

Hmmm....big piece of tape removed and the corner which was eaten by a dog is now back! Just a "small repair..." I wonder if the paper restoration company that did this work also did the Keeler Cabinet which Mastro previously butchered?

Regardless, it would seem that Mastr--woops--Legendary again does well following up from a Leland's sale.

[slidekellyslide]

I suppose it depends on your perspective as to what constitutes a small repair...I'd like to see before and after pictures of the other two programs that Allen refers to as having significant repairs. This one just doesn't scream out to me that Mastro/Legendary is trying to fool anyone.

[calvindog]

Well, how about the before picture of this program itself? Might be more relevant than a reference to similar programs.

[slidekellyslide]

I'm all for disclosing information, and I agree they probably should have before pics of anything that is restored in any way...I'm guessing anyone looking to purchase knew exactly where the program came from.

Did this program sell? Looks like the auction closed with only the minimum bid.

[calvindog]

I believe just the internet bidding is closed; this lot is part of the live Mastro auction at the National.

And I'm not so certain that a buyer of this program would have known that it was previously sold over a year ago in Lelands auction. Who can keep track of every single lot in every auction?

Regardless, I can't understand why 'before' pictures were not included or why when giving comparison sales prices of purportedly similar programs Mastro neglected to note what THIS program sold for. After all, which prior sale is more relevant to a prospective bidder -- some unknown "similar" restored programs or the actual unrestored program?

[slidekellyslide]

Well, if I'm about to drop a hundred grand on a WS program that has disclosed restoration I ask for before pics.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Paper added at the "extreme tip" seems a bit understated given the picture in Leland's. Graphic Restorations does impressive work.

[slidekellyslide]

Restoration is obvious...they didn't match the paper color exactly at the tips. Comparing the Lelands photos with the Legendary photos it appears that they actually lost a bit of paper on the bottom at the spine.

[sox1903wschamp]

I was watching this and when I saw the restoration compared to the 11/08 Lelands, my jaw just dropped. Can't they just leave this stuff alone? Of course not, we have to chase the almighty buck.

I personally would prefer the pre-restore piece and would not touch this thing. 106 years later and they have to mess with it. The potential problem is will there be full disclosure to potential buyers decades down the road? Heck there is barely disclosure now.

I might be in the market for this in the future and for this piece, there will be a big "no sale" sign around my neck.

[drc]

Legendary says there was restoration and says where it was done, including at the edge where the tape was, so I don't have an issue with the disclosure.

[chiprop]

After checking out the Legendary website, it looks like many lots were either passed on or no bid. The remaining lots looked super weak on the selling price. Fredrick Ruth under $6k, t-208 under $4k, etc. I would have bid higher on both of those lots. I think the live auction process doesn't involve the masses and was a dis-service to the consigner. Was that the worst auction in the past 10 years, or am I missing something?

[barrysloate]

While full disclosure of restoration is important, I don't agree that pieces such as this should just be left alone. Old paper becomes very acidic over the years and in time may disintegrate. Even minimal restoration goes a long way in preserving it, and you can deacidify the paper so it doesn't continue to break down.

But I do agree that this one has had more than minimal restoration. There should have been more information provided for prospective bidders.

[HiNeighbor]

Nice program, I wish I had that kind of cash to own one. I'm sure my Sox collection won't ever see one.

Restoration - I've done a lot of it on same era brewery advertising to stabilize, preserve and improve the esthetic beauty. Perhaps the program was brittle that restoration was required before it fell apart any further. They did the same thing to Old Glory at the Smithsonian.

I couldn't care less about the $$ when evaluating a piece for restoration. It all depends on your perspective. Sometimes it's not all about the almighty dollar (Maybe it's me, but it seems that the almighty buck rules cards more than anything else in the sports collecting hobby - so much is based on minute condition flaws vs. actual rarity).

I have friends who have restored sports photographs and lithographs.
The auction discloses restoration. If it's not your thing, don't bid.

[zork1974]

I agree. If it sells for more, then why not? It's their money, not ours.

[nyyanksghr]

I was the lucky high bidder on the restored 1903 WS Game 1 program. I was aware this was the same program Lelands sold. When it was sold in Lelands, I passed on it as it wasn't pleasing to my eye. When it was offered again through Legendary Auctions, with the professional restoration, it was very pleasing to my eye! I'm excitied to own it. Job well done on the restoration and congratulations to an amazing and fun Live auction in Cleveland. Great job Doug Allen and crew.

[Ladder7]

Great item, before.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by chiprop

After checking out the Legendary website, it looks like many lots were either passed on or no bid. The remaining lots looked super weak on the selling price. Fredrick Ruth under $6k, t-208 under $4k, etc. I would have bid higher on both of those lots. I think the live auction process doesn't involve the masses and was a dis-service to the consigner. Was that the worst auction in the past 10 years, or am I missing something?

You are missing something. The T208 went for about 25k after juice....and the Fredericks Ruth went for about 20k after juice. Their website didn't update prices. I was there and had a great time. regards

[autograf]

Congrats on the program. Don't you think you could have gotten the Lelands program and then had similar restoration performed for a little less than the additional $50K? I would assume the same restorers work for multiple people. Still a beautiful piece.

[nyyanksghr]

Tom-Great question. Yes, I could have purchased the program in Lelands and found a restorer on my own, for much less, I imagine. The reason for my elevated bid in the Legendary auction was two fold: 1. Since the last offering in lelands, I was outbid in a private offering on an 03 program. The price was 90,000. 2. Through research since the Lelands offering, I have become convinced that this is the ONLY documented Game 1 03 WS program. My feelings towards value greatly changed. Congratulations to Doug Allen for putting together a fantastic Live auction. The prices were strong, which should make all collectors breathe a little easier.

[calvindog]

John, so you purchased two very expensive restored items in one auction? You must have a lot of faith! Did you get a chance to see the 'before' pictures of the Wagner?

[lharri3600]

why not just sell it as is??

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by lharri3600

why not just sell it as is??

Exactly. I could see structure restoration if the program was falling apart but this thing was restored for making money and too much was done for my liking. But to each their own. Enjoy your program John and hopefully the profits made on this sale can help this Auction house pay consignors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I honestly just don't understand why it is worth more -- not to mention much more -- in a restored state.

[nyyanksghr]

"John, so you purchased two very expensive restored items in one auction? You must have a lot of faith! Did you get a chance to see the 'before' pictures of the Wagner"


Yep. I have seen the before photos...amazing, amazing job on the restoration. With PSA 1's bringing 350-500+, I was pleased to get this restored example. The general public who hasn't had the opportunity to see a real Wagner doesnt care that its restored, they just are thrilled to see a Wagner. I had to turn down too many requests from local groups to display the PSA 5 b/c of the risk involved. As stated, this one is more fun and I'll be able to accomodate the numerous ballparks, kids groups, etc. who wanted to display it for a day or evening. We had the other Wagner on display one night for our local Police Athletic League. Shoulda seen the smiles on those kids faces!

[tothrk]

There's a Plank floating around with no borders. Slap some borders on it and proceed with an auction. These items are out of my league and anyone can spend their own money how they see fit. I'm not faulting anyone for spending their $$$ on whatever they choose. In my opinion, a tiny bit of restoration leads to a moderate bit of restoration leads to major restoration leads to Channing a card in your basement. Might be a drastic summary but why return a card with "evidence of trimming" and then slab one with borders attached? Just slab it PSA "Restored" and the hobby can slowly progress to a giant gray area where everything is half original. O.K. I'm done. Sorry if I went overboard.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by nyyanksghr

As stated, this one is more fun and I'll be able to accomodate the numerous ballparks, kids groups, etc. who wanted to display it for a day or evening. We had the other Wagner on display one night for our local Police Athletic League. Shoulda seen the smiles on those kids faces!

That's really awesome. Great use of an amazing piece. I'm sure kids and adults alike are thrilled to see/hold one.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by tothrk

There's a Plank floating around with no borders. Slap some borders on it and proceed with an auction. These items are out of my league and anyone can spend their own money how they see fit. I'm not faulting anyone for spending their $$$ on whatever they choose. In my opinion, a tiny bit of restoration leads to a moderate bit of restoration leads to major restoration leads to Channing a card in your basement. Might be a drastic summary but why return a card with "evidence of trimming" and then slab one with borders attached? Just slab it PSA "Restored" and the hobby can slowly progress to a giant gray area where everything is half original. O.K. I'm done. Sorry if I went overboard.

I totally agree.

T206 "No Borders" Plank: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270385921331

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I totally agree.

T206 "No Borders" Plank: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270385921331

Man that's painful to look at.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by nyyanksghr

With PSA 1's bringing 350-500+, I was pleased to get this restored example. The general public who hasn't had the opportunity to see a real Wagner doesnt care that its restored, they just are thrilled to see a Wagner. I had to turn down too many requests from local groups to display the PSA 5 b/c of the risk involved. As stated, this one is more fun and I'll be able to accomodate the numerous ballparks, kids groups, etc. who wanted to display it for a day or evening. We had the other Wagner on display one night for our local Police Athletic League. Shoulda seen the smiles on those kids faces!

This might be my favorite post that I have ever read on this board. John, congrats on winning both auctions! The program: AWESOME! The Wagner: Ditto. If I were still a collector (as a dealer, I can no longer consider myself a collector), given the choice, I would much rather own this restored example than a graded example lower than a 3. As I have tried to state many times, for me, this is a visual hobby; thus, purchasing a restored example of such a rarity makes perfect sense to me. Also, I think it's great that you intend to share this piece with the world, a truly noble pursuit which can only benefit our hobby (and, therefore, each of us) in the long run. Once again, congrats!

One final thought on restoration: might it be better to have restored cards authenticated, encapsulated, and labelled accordingly by PSA, SGC, etc., than to have them floating around raw??

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I honestly just don't understand why it is worth more -- not to mention much more -- in a restored state.

Neither do I.

[HiNeighbor]

Congrats on the program, great piece!!! Of course, I could be biased. These are as close as I'll come by for stuff brought to the park on that day:

[Potomac Yank]

Although I'm an old Yank fan, I love that 1903 program.

I also agree with you, as for baseball history, your Boston Rooters button, and M. T. McGreevy's Rooters Souvenir card, are in the same ballpark.

Nuf Ced!

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by nyyanksghr

As stated, this one is more fun and I'll be able to accomodate the numerous ballparks, kids groups, etc. who wanted to display it for a day or evening. We had the other Wagner on display one night for our local Police Athletic League. Shoulda seen the smiles on those kids faces!

Very, very cool.