What do you think of this Heritage offering?

[travrosty]

What do you think of this Heritage offering?

Late 1930's Lou Gehrig single signed baseball.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7070&lotNo=80016


Sorry too late, what do you think of THIS one?

World series 1917 final out baseball.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7070&lotNo=80105


sorry, too late on that one, too, what about THIS one.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7070&lotNo=80011

bid is at $100,00 what do you think? Would you bid on it if you could?

is this the best 1927 signed Yankees ball there is? Is it worth $200,00+ estimate?

[RichardSimon]

I guess many here are afraid of a banning by Heritage if they offer an opinion on that ball. Travis and I have already been banned so what the heck.
I did an informal survey among five people whose opinions I respect a LOT and four of them disagree with the TPA's opinions on this ball.
Another person who read my post, a hobby veteran with MANY years of experience, just e mailed me and agreed with the majority of the people in my informal survey. That now makes five out of six people who have expressed an opinion that differs from the TPA's on this ball.

[shelly]

I find it interesting that if you like something from Heritage you are a bright and good person.The the othe side of the story is. If you dont like what you are looking at your are foolish and you should never be allowed to darken our doors.
I am willing to take that gamble and say I have many bad feelings about this ball and I would not buy it.
Since I have yet to purchase anything from them there is little to loose on either side. I will keep you informed if anyone cares.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by shelly

I find it interesting that if you like something from Heritage you are a bright and good person.The the othe side of the story is. If you dont like what you are looking at your are foolish and you should never be allowed to darken our doors.
I am willing to take that gamble and say I have many bad feelings about this ball and I would not buy it.
Since I have yet to purchase anything from them there is little to loose on either side. I will keep you informed if anyone cares.

I'll take a gamble too and say that I would tend to agree with the previous 3 posters over any insider cert crap going on at PSA, JSA & Heritage. Go ahead and ban me. I don't even collect anymore do to this situation and wouldn't be caught dead giving Heritage ONE RED CENT PERIOD, in any event. Ban me, ban everybody, I could give a rats ass. This cert stuff is among the most ridiculous situations I have every known and don't wish to be a part of all the scamming and scheming. It boils down to people in general have little or NO integrity in this business and it's downright laughable.

[travrosty]

Maybe they could DOUBLE ban me? If they really wanted to punish me, they could reinstate my account!

I also got correspondence from a long time collector, with decades of experience, and he has big concerns over this ball also, the uniformity in the spacing, and start - stop points of the signatures, the green ink, the babe ruth signature, no one signing on the sweet spot. And then there are the signatures themselves.

It just doesn't seem to add up. the contrivance of someone putting the positions down on the baseball, made even more suspicious because it was one of the ballplayers who supposedly wrote the positions down. Doesn't he know the positions of the people signing when he is on the team? And how does the authenticators know that the positions were inscribed by Combs hand? Not enough to go by!

the person who contacted me loves these old baseballs and won't be bidding on it either.

I hear a big name in baseball autographs doesn't like it either and will make it be known soon.

[RichardSimon]

Double banning,,, ouch, does that include 20 lashes?? .

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If they really wanted to punish me, they could reinstate my account!

Nice one, that one made me smile

Mike

[RichardSimon]

The auction takes place about eight blocks from where I live.
Since I am barred from bidding I wonder if they would let me attend the preview.
I would guess not, since they require ID for admission and I guess that I am on some sh-- list there.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Nice one, that one made me smile

Mike

+1

[mighty bombjack]

There is no way I would pay that price for that or any ball, even if I had the money to spend. The best Yankee ball? Clearly that is an opinion, and many will disagree.

Real autos? Clearly that is an opinion as well, and many are disagreeing. Seems like JSA and PSA have deemed it real, as has one of the five people Richard polled? Is that like the one dentist that doesn't recommend Trident gum to their patients that chew gum?

My point is, all we have about those signatures are opinions, and opinions of people giving the opinions. Somebody paying over 100 K for a baseball with writing on it needs to be comfortable with what they are buying.

I'm more interested in the removed lots that Travis posted. We're they deemed bad after being posted to the auction, or what? We'll never know I guess.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

My point is, all we have about those signatures are opinions, and opinions of people giving the opinions. Somebody paying over 100 K for a baseball with writing on it needs to be comfortable with what they are buying.

I'm more interested in the removed lots that Travis posted. We're they deemed bad after being posted to the auction, or what? We'll never know I guess.

In this hobby someone spending $100K on a ball only has to have a COA from one of the TPA's to be comfortable.
And the reasons for the removal of the two baseballs are already posted on the Hauls of Shame website. The balls were made after the alleged dates of use and signing. That info on the website came from our own Brandon Grunbaum, who knows more about baseballs then anyone that I know.

[David Atkatz]

Actually, Wayne, we do know. (Thanks, Peter.)

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=16843#more-16843

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...2HaXwJHxUG9LsJ

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Actually, Wayne, we do know. (Thanks, Peter.)

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=16843#more-16843

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...2HaXwJHxUG9LsJ

That is fantastic! Great stuff on the part of Brandon and Peter.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

In this hobby someone spending $100K on a ball only has to have a COA from one of the TPA's to be comfortable.

That's up to them, isn't it? I think they're crazy, but people spend bigger money than that on things I wouldn't touch all of the time. And there are clearly several people who disagree with those TPAs (though exactly who some of those people are is not at all clear).

I'm glad that, in the case of the balls that went poof, they had to be removed because of iron clad proof and not warring opinions. When all we have is the latter, the "truth" is going to equal perception and perception alone.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

That's up to them, isn't it? I think they're crazy, but people spend bigger money than that on things I wouldn't touch all of the time. And there are clearly several people who disagree with those TPAs (though exactly who some of those people are is not at all clear).

I'm glad that, in the case of the balls that went poof, they had to be removed because of iron clad proof and not warring opinions. When all we have is the latter, the "truth" is going to equal perception and perception alone.

I can assure you that the people (when I ask questions of people, I usually don't turn around and then print their names in a forum) I asked are all very highly regarded in the hobby and one of them is Shelly, who has posted his thoughts on this ball, in this thread, and who at this very moment is trembling at the thought of retribution from Heritage .

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Double banning,,, ouch, does that include 20 lashes?? .

maybe stoning by baseball, they got a couple now they aren't doing anything with.

[dgo71]

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I've never really participated in auctions from the larger houses and I am wondering, point blank, who can you trust? I know Coaches Corner is downright laughable (how they are allowed to even continue operating is beyond me) and I see many auctions reviews in SCD for Heritage, Kevin Savage, etc. In fact I just read an article on this '27 Yanks ball and the story was it was part of Earle Combs' personal collection and there was some provenance with it to that effect. However, if something like this Yanks ball is questioned by people whose opinions I trust immensely, it makes me wonder what type of work the auction houses are doing to prevent themselves from selling forgeries. Are there any auction houses that are unquestionably trustworthy?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I can assure you that the people (when I ask questions of people, I usually don't turn around and then print their names in a forum) I asked are all very highly regarded in the hobby and one of them is Shelly, who has posted his thoughts on this ball, in this thread and who at this very moment is trembling at the thought of retribution from Heritage .

I respect that Richard, but it's very easy to say that "experts" agree that something is bad, as Nash is wont to do in his postings. Others are quick to accept that as truth because they have an agenda that needs satisfying. I could easily say that I've spoken to several experts who think this Yankee ball is good. People would ask for names then, no?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I've never really participated in auctions from the larger houses and I am wondering, point blank, who can you trust? I know Coaches Corner is downright laughable (how they are allowed to even continue operating is beyond me) and I see many auctions reviews in SCD for Heritage, Kevin Savage, etc. In fact I just read an article on this '27 Yanks ball and the story was it was part of Earle Combs' personal collection and there was some provenance with it to that effect. However, if something like this Yanks ball is questioned by people whose opinions I trust immensely, it makes me wonder what type of work the auction houses are doing to prevent themselves from selling forgeries. Are there any auction houses that are unquestionably trustworthy?

The argument often made here, which is a right and righteous one, is that these third party authenticators are letting auction houses do less and less in terms of determining authenticity on their own. TPAs are here to stay, but a respectable house should be willing and able to give its own opinion first and foremost. Leland's is one house that gets love around here for doing their own work and not relying on others. Heritage clearly wants big dollar items to push, and a TPA cert let's them do exactly that without worrying about the item itself. That is, until someone points out that an item is demonstrably fake (the proof for which is not very often available).

[David Atkatz]

Here's a name. I don't know if it's "the best autographed baseball, ever," or "the best 1927 Yankees baseball," but my humble opinion is that the ball is genuine.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I've never really participated in auctions from the larger houses and I am wondering, point blank, who can you trust? I know Coaches Corner is downright laughable (how they are allowed to even continue operating is beyond me) and I see many auctions reviews in SCD for Heritage, Kevin Savage, etc. In fact I just read an article on this '27 Yanks ball and the story was it was part of Earle Combs' personal collection and there was some provenance with it to that effect. However, if something like this Yanks ball is questioned by people whose opinions I trust immensely, it makes me wonder what type of work the auction houses are doing to prevent themselves from selling forgeries. Are there any auction houses that are unquestionably trustworthy?

All mainstream legitimate auction houses want to offer good product. if it comes with a TPA cert, you have to look at who certed it and their qualifications, as well as get second and third opinions from others that you trust in the hobby. I believe Heritage should do all they can to date these baseballs and pull out the bad weeds BEFORE they ever get to the TPA.

It's up to each auction house to do some due diligence. for some that due diligence is relying entirely on the TPA's. sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. No auction house is immune, but some seem to be in the spotlight more than others and maybe they had a hand in their own demise in that regard by not being careful enough and not getting more opinions.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I could easily say that I've spoken to several experts who think this Yankee ball is good. People would ask for names then, no?

Have you actually spoken to several experts? If you tell me you did, then I would believe you, but you are not exactly saying that now. You don't have to name the names, just tell us if you have actually talked to people about the ball and if so how many.
This looks like one of those baseballs where we have to say that the people who have been asked just disagree but two of the names of those that have offered negative opinions on the ball are at the very top of this hobby.

[David Atkatz]

What's your own opinion, Richard?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Have you actually spoken to several experts? If you tell me you did, then I would believe you, but you are not exactly saying that now. You don't have to name the names, just tell us if you have actually talked to people about the ball and if so how many.
This looks like one of those baseballs where we have to say that the people who have been asked just disagree but two of the names of those that I have discussed the ball with are at the very top of this hobby.

I have not spoken to anybody about this ball, only the back and forth on this board. I agree, all we will be left with on this ball is opinions and opinions of those giving opinions. And there is apparent disagreement on both of those counts.

For me, the authenticity of this particular ball isn't really of interest per se, but the discussion of auction house practices and how authenticity is determined by interested parties is why I'm here.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I guess many here are afraid of a banning by Heritage if they offer an opinion on that ball. Travis and I have already been banned so what the heck.
I did an informal survey among five people whose opinions I respect a LOT and four of them disagree with the TPA's opinions on this ball.
Another person who read my post, a hobby veteran with MANY years of experience, just e mailed me and agreed with the majority of the people in my informal survey. That now makes five out of six people who have expressed an opinion that differs from the TPA's on this ball.

David, I would surmise from the quote above you no exactly what his opinion is. I am just saying he would not in his opinion buy that ball. If I am wrong then Richard can answere.

[RichardSimon]

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

David, I would surmise from the quote above you no exactly what his opinion is. I am just saying he would not in his opinion buy that ball. If I am wrong then Richard can answere.

No, Shelly. I don't know what his opinion is. He mentions six people he contacted, or who contacted him, and five don't like the ball. He never states his own opinion.

Perhaps Richard will answer, speaking for himself.

[RichardSimon]

Since I usually have David on block I did not know what he was saying. But it became apparent to me from Shelly's posts.
My opinion on the ball is that it is not authentic.
Why else would I have posted what I did about it?

[David Atkatz]

Well, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Why else would you have posted what you did?
Who knows?
But we already have to guess who your experts are. Why should we have to guess your opinion, too?

[shelly]

David be nice

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

David be nice

I was being nice, Shelly. All I did was ask Richard--very nicely--for his own opinion. Then I got a sort-of answer--from you, not him--and a line of "smiley-face code" from Richard.

And I'm sure you'll admit, Shelly, that when he finally did answer, he saw fit to embellish his reply when a simple "I think it's bad" would have sufficed.

[dgo71]

Thanks Wayne and Travis...wow, that's scary. You would think legally the auction house should still have some liability. Ignorance of the law being no excuse for breaking it, and all that. It's disheartening to see big houses essentially using the "we didn't know it was fake" excuse by hiding behind a TPA.

[RichardSimon]

So close and yet so far away. (I live at East 80th Street and the auction is at East 79th Street across the street from Central Park).
I am assuming after this thread I will have to come up with some fake ID to get into this auction .

[David Atkatz]

I will probably go to the preview--I'd like to see some of these pieces. I haven't decided about the auction, yet.

[shelly]

Richard, I am sure David would take you as he guest. Then I am sure we will know if it is authentic or not.
I can dream can't I.

[shelly]

I would be amazed if Heritage did not allow anyone into the auction preview. In fact they would be fools if they did that. Just think about the negative press that they would get.
Why would any auction house not allow anyone in unless they have doubt's of there own. What better way to prove to those who think the ball is not authentic but to let them see it in person. Would anyone of you spend that kind of money on just someone's word. I sure would like to see what I am buying in or send someone that has no interest but to make sure what I am buying is truly what they say it is.

What I Find most amazing is. Heritage has what they call two of the greatest experts in the autograph world. Yet you do not see them saying in there opinion it is authentic. Why do they go outside of there own staff to have this item authenticated? In fact when have you ever seen Gutierrez or Jordan on any of there certs.
Just so you know this is from Mike's site dated Feb 2 2013. No conflict of interest at all.


Mike Gutierrez is a vintage sports autograph and memorabilia specialist with experience dating back to the 1970s. Currently, he works for Heritage Auctions in Dallas, Texas, as a consignments director and is also an autograph authentication consultant for James Spence Authentication (JSA), the leader in sports authentication.
Hey, If I am that person buying that ball that is what I would ask.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

Richard, I am sure David would take you as he guest. Then I am sure we will know if it is authentic or not.
I can dream can't I.

WTF is wrong with you, Shelly? Are you not happy unless you can get a fight going here?

[David Atkatz]

Mike is certainly one of the "greatest experts in the autograph world."
He definitely knew those letters in the National Baseball Library's August Herrmann Papers were genuine.

[chaddurbin]

i think it would be a great idea for richard and david to go together and check these sigs out in person. then they can debate about it and maybe come to a consensus. we can dream...

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by shelly

I would be amazed if Heritage did not allow anyone into the auction preview. In fact they would be fools if they did that. Just think about the negative press that they would get.
Why would any auction house not allow anyone in unless they have doubt's of there own. What better way to prove to those who think the ball is not authentic but to let them see it in person. Would anyone of you spend that kind of money on just someone's word. I sure would like to see what I am buying in or send someone that has no interest but to make sure what I am buying is truly what they say it is.

What I Find most amazing is. Heritage has what they call two of the greatest experts in the autograph world. Yet you do not see them saying in there opinion it is authentic. Why do they go outside of there own staff to have this item authenticated? In fact when have you ever seen Gutierrez or Jordan on any of there certs.
Just so you know this is from Mike's site dated Feb 2 2013. No conflict of interest at all.


Mike Gutierrez is a vintage sports autograph and memorabilia specialist with experience dating back to the 1970s. Currently, he works for Heritage Auctions in Dallas, Texas, as a consignments director and is also an autograph authentication consultant for James Spence Authentication (JSA), the leader in sports authentication.
Hey, If I am that person buying that ball that is what I would ask.

Any auction I have attended has not allowed anyone to preview unless they are registered to bid. If you are "banned", you cannot register and, therefore, you cannot preview. The only exceptions I have run into are charity auctions. But then again, maybe I have a shifty visage*.

*Trademarked. Any band that would like to use it, let's talk.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Any auction I have attended has not allowed anyone to preview unless they are registered to bid. If you are "banned", you cannot register and, therefore, you cannot preview. The only exceptions I have run into are charity auctions. But then again, maybe I have a shifty visage*.

*Trademarked. Any band that would like to use it, let's talk.

Looks like Travis and I are out of luck.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Looks like Travis and I are out of luck.

I guess I am out of luck, and I was on such a roll too.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Looks like Travis and I are out of luck.

You can preview with a $100 donation to charity.

[shelly]

I know that Heritage reads this site. If you really feel that the ball is authentic then I would lift any ban on any member of this site. I think that Leon should also request that as well.

[JimStinson]

According to the description of the baseball, it was a gift directly from Earle Combs to his neighbor. On an item expected to sell for as much as this one there would or should be a paper trail a mile long.

How difficult then to request the NAME of the neighbor which certainly the consignor would be more than happy to provide,

take less than an hour do a search of the Federal Census records. Confirm Combs address......his home address is in all of the census back to when he was a baby....and then confirm the proximity of the neighbor. Pretty simple stuff. Also could be crossed checked against the city directory and the best part is all this information is available on line.

Then to be extra diligent find a living relative if the neighbor is deceased (also through census records) and confirm. Then after ALL of that is done examine the item in question.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Jim, why would you go through all that if you have two letters from the "the top two authenticator.'s in the world"
They just think that what ever these people say is fact. How many times will it take for any of these auction houses to realize that it is just an opinion and for that kind of money I sure would do a lot more than an opinion.
I still find it offensive that they would not allow a people that are respected in the industry to look at there items.
I think that they would appreciate someone else's opinion for that kind of money. If I where the buyer I would like to have a real exam of the ball. it might cost them a few thousand but worth it in the long run.

[travrosty]

They think they are setting dangerous precedent to let others look at it besides psa and jsa. They think that opens them up to the appearance that psa and jsa arent up to the job if the word gets out that others were brought in to inspect and investigate the items and/or autographs. They want the impression that psa and jsa are the be-all end-all to everything, case closed, no further authentication needed. period. End of story. PSA or JSA and nobody else.

They do that at their own peril. But its up to them. I dont see how it has been working out in their favor lately. Is it just me or do these old, valuable, rare balls and signatures seem to always have BOTH authenticators signing off on them. You would think that at least some of the time they would disagree and there would only be one of them that liked it, either just psa or just a jsa certificate. But it seems like they always have both.

I am wondering if the second company that looks at these items is told beforehand if the first one has passed it or not. It should be a blind study type of thing, where both companies are not told at all if the other one liked it. It is only fair to do it that way as to not give the appearance of the results being tainted by prior knowledge of the other authenticators decision.

Ivy won't come on here but Jonathan does so let's hear how these authentications work. Are they told if the other service has given it the ok or not before they look at it?

[shelly]

Travis, what bigger conflict of interest is there than having a man work for both you and the authenticator?

[David Atkatz]

Gotta agree with Shelly on that!

[travrosty]

I agree, I can't figure out why that is permissable. It's like the '84 Celtics and Lakers playing for the championship and your head referee tonight is Red Auerbach.