eBay situtation. You can all draw your own conclusions

[Kenny Cole]

With Leon's permission, I am going to post an email thread that I had with the seller of a Negro League photograph that I won. After I won it, before I paid for it, the seller cancelled the auction. I asked why. Here is the thread, which I have included in its entirety (except for one thread in which the seller said he'd get back to me later) so that everyone can draw their own conclusions. All I will say is that the seller chose the auction venue, chose not to list the item with a reserve, and chose not to consign it with an auction house that might have publicized it better. With that said, here it is. I will warn everyone that it is long.

(Me)
I am getting an email indicating that you canceled this order. Would you please advise what is going on? Thank you.

Kenny Cole

(Him)
americanlaureate:
Mr. Cole, Good Evening.

Two things caused me to cancel the sale of the panorama. The first and most obvious was the poor result that the photo brought, which was ironic in view of the number of folks that were excited about the image and that contacted me..some even asking that I delist the item and sell it to them privately.
Before i talk about the weightier reason that influenced the cancellation, I wish to tell you how much I enjoyed reading your generous forum postings about the Negro Leagues - it is obvious from these postings that you are an incredibly intelligent, passionate and honorable guy.

The second reason I cancelled the sale was the small part of one forum thread that bemoaned the lack of spirited bidding of top notch Negro League items and the role that private "core collectors" played in keeping the records of those sales, as well as the items sold, private. Further along in the forum there was a short but pungent discussion that cast doubts about my items and over me.

Mr Cole, as you know, the world of collectors is small and narrows quickly as it climbs to better items and higher prices. I do not think that the panorama had a fair showing and i do think that that there was some undue discussion and possibly collusion among buyers that prevented it from reaching even a moderately fair price.

I am sorry for what disappointment it has caused you. Jimmy Allen


(Me)
Well, as you are doubtless aware, seller's remorse is no better excuse for failing to honor a deal than is buyer's remorse. I am not going to even dignify your "collusion" assertion with a response except to say that I won the item on a snipe bid that was substantially higher than the ending price and, given the way eBay currently works, I don't even know who the other bidders were.

I won the item fair and square. Had you received more than you felt the item was worth, I very seriously doubt that you'd feel so unhappy for the buyer that you would refund them what you believed the excess to be. If I had won the item for $10,000 and then backed out of the deal for no legitimate reason, I suspect you would feel somewhat like I do know. In any event, I will be leaving you a negative. I will also be contacting eBay and informing them that the reason you cancelled the deal was that you were unhappy with the ending price. I will inform all of my friends, the "core collectors" of negro league items that you referred to, of what happened and how lacking in integrity you appear to be. If I can think of anything else, I will do that as well. I can't prevent you from breaking your word, breaching your contract, and keeping the item you promised to sell, but I will certainly do what I can to make you regret having done those things.

Kenny Cole

(Him)
Dear Mr. Cole,

I am grateful to eBay for the opportunity to conduct business. I believe that eBay will see how my actions protect them as well.

Mr. Cole, my reputation as an honest and professional dealer directly impacts my ability to make a living. I would ask that you show caution.

I do not wish to respond in kind to your message. I sympathize with your disappointment at not purchasing a “top notch” item for a fraction of its value. I can tell you that I have no seller’s remorse. I was, as I stated, simply perplexed.

In the eyes of the law, a red flag is sent up when an object is offered for sale at a fraction of its value; the theory is that the buyer should know that the object is stolen. I look with the same suspicion upon the situation at hand, though, in reverse. The red flag went up when the auction for an irrefutable “top notch” photo closed at a fraction of its value. It raised justifiable suspicion that something was afoul. In such a case, it is not the seller’s motives that are called into question, but the buyer’s.

You are, Mr. Cole, well situated to write about the private sales that are made among your friends, the core collectors, (as you described them on a Negro League public forum), and the effects those unrecorded sales have on other collectors. The “core collectors” join to keep prices down; to soften the marketplace, and shake the confidence of collectors. Then they acquire great items at steep discounts.
Who does this hurt? Not dishonest folks, but honest folks- like me. Honest, good dealers who unwittingly list great material on eBay; honest collectors ( those outside the loop of core collectors) who lose confidence in the market and shake the confidence of collectors. As a consequence, they acquire many great items at steep discounts.

Who does this hurt? Not dishonest folks, but honest folks- like me. Honest, good dealers who unwittingly list great material on eBay.

(Him, continued in the next email)

and shake the confidence of collectors. As a consequence, they acquire many great items at steep discounts.

Who does this hurt? Not dishonest folks, but honest folks- like me. Honest, good dealers who unwittingly list great material on eBay; unsuspecting honest collectors ( those outside the loop of core collectors) who lose confidence in the marketplace, and, of course, eBay is denied honest profits as a diminishing number of objects are listed. Don’t take my word for it; search eBay for real vintage Negro League items. How many would one find, 2, 3 ?

Colluding buyers, when they do not prevail in their schemes, are typically, acutely bitter and vengeful. Your words document the collective, (one might say collusive) campaign you have initiated to harm me - so much for not working in concert. These are your words:

“I will inform all of my friends, the "core collectors" of negro league items that you referred to, of what happened and how lacking in integrity you appear to be. If I can think of anything else, I will do that as well. I can't prevent you from breaking your word, breaching your contract, and keeping the item you promised to sell, but I will certainly do what I can to make you regret having done those things.”

Your concession that you know all the “core collectors” of Negro League items and that they are all friends, and that you are in contact with them underscores the illegitimacy of your claim that you were an innocent, anonymous bidder. How believable is it when you claim, “I don't even know who the other bidders were.?”

I have every right to protect myself against individuals that engineer the outcome of sales. I do not have to surrender to illegal activity and threats to my livelihood.

Again, I am grateful to eBay for the opportunity to conduct business and appreciate the measures that they have put in place to protect both the buyers and sellers.

Sincerely,

Jimmy Allen


Orig. Panorama Photo Negro League, Washington Potomacs, Hall of Famer Ben Taylor

Current Bid: $1,102.89
Auction ends Mar 27, 2016 18:00 PDT
Bids: 35

I thought it was only fair to let folks know how this seller does business without embellishing or throwing my slant on what occurred. As I said before, you can draw your own conclusions about his statement that he was an honest seller. I certainly have drawn mine.

Kenny Cole

[rhettyeakley]

He is being a disingenuous, dishonest blowhard. His rationale for cancelling the sale is beyond comical. He didn't like the price and that is it.

He likely has another buyer lined up that is willing to pay him more and may have even prompted him to do exactly what is being done.

We have all had somebody come out of left field and meddle with sales and I suspect that is the case here, he really has no leg to stand on for what he is doing.

[bcornell]

Hey, Leon - this dishonest seller uses a thread on this forum to justify behaving like this. Is that okay with you?

Phil Garry, anything to add here? The seller is singling you out for revealing hobby "collusion", as he describes it.


Bill

[Dewey]

He recently sold a nice Branch Rickey/Ohio Wesleyan photo. I don't think he "unwittingly" lists anything on ebay. I'm new around here and even I can see this clearly for what it is.

[bcornell]

Seller: americanlaureate

auction: Orig. Panorama Photo Negro League, Washington Potomacs, Hall of Famer Ben Taylor


His squirming response about why he won't sell this item is no better than the nonsense that all the reprint sellers spew. They behave badly because they don't fear the consequences.

[pokerplyr80]

I read through the other thread out of curiosity. I must have missed the part about colluding to keep public sales low. This guy sounds like a seller I would never want to do business with. Not that it would have made the action any better, but I would have respected Jimmy more if he would have simply said sorry I felt this item was worth much more than it closed for and decided to keep it.

[jonvancouver]

Seller is a pig. Karma is a real b*tch though.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

He is being a disingenuous, dishonest blowhard. His rationale for cancelling the sale is beyond comical. He didn't like the price and that is it.

He likely has another buyer lined up that is willing to pay him more and may have even prompted him to do exactly what is being done.

We have all had somebody come out of left field and meddle with sales and I suspect that is the case here, he really has no leg to stand on for what he is doing.

Agreed. The seller could have posted a reserve if he didn't want to sell below a certain price. He didn't, and now he should honor the sale.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Sean

The seller could have posted a reserve if he didn't want to sell below a certain price. He didn't, and now he should honor the sale.

+1

[ullmandds]

Unfortunately this type of scenario is allowed and seems to be encouraged by eBay based on their awful rules. I most certainly hope that you can get some type of satisfaction from eBay but I doubt it.

No one wants to take accountability anymore in society.

[JustinD]

This whole experience sucks and this is one dealer that is 100% off my list.

I must say that you are assisting this delirium by having such an easily searched profile. The reason that many of us use the oddly written name descriptions are that to a human they are easily deciphered, however to a search engine it is unusable.

The seller was looking for an out and googled your name, city and state and found all your personal thoughts. He used this information to support his "Area 51" theories.

It is best to be an anonymous buyer than to play poker with your cards face up to a stranger.

I think if the googling had not lead him to the trough that fed unjustified fears you would have your item and the seller would have been frustrated, but in today's market he did receive a decent price.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

No one wants to take accountability anymore in society.

+1

[vintagetoppsguy]

Even though the seller cancelled the listing, you should still be allowed to leave feedback. Neg his sorry butt and move on.

[Leon]

Jimmy Allen, the seller, said he is an honest seller. His message seems to indicate otherwise. And the more we spell out his name in this thread the more googling will help others know how he really is. I also like the fact Jimmy Allen is professing law to one of the best lawyers I know.

[ksabet]

As a collector, this just makes me sad. I hate that something so innocent from my childhood has turned into this.

I am not in any way chiding the OP and actually agree with him 100% but I can't help but shake my head that people can't just buy, sell and enjoy anymore.


This isn't the first crazy buyer/seller story and won't be the last but makes me second guess why I don't collect My Little Pony like my 5-year-old daughter. She still smiles overtime she gets one. I am left wondering if what I have is real, fake or some combination of the two.

[SMPEP]

I think Jimmy Allen just lost a lot of business. Can't imagine many on here will ever deal with him again. Hope he calculated the "loss' on this one item, versus the "loss" on whatever else he hopes to sell.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Can't imagine many on here will ever deal with him again.

People still deal with Probstein
People still deal with the grading companies
People still deal with ...(fill in the blank)

Stuff trumps morals.

[53Browns]

What a little girl! Maybe this moron should look up the definition of "auction"!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

People still deal with Probstein
People still deal with the grading companies
People still deal with ...(fill in the blank)

Stuff trumps morals.

Sad but true.

[Rookiemonster]

First off let me start by saying I WANT IN ON THE SUPER SECRET COLLRCTORS TRUST !!!!!!

Second this guy is so full of it .


That is all ...

[earlywynnfan]

Am I the only one who asked him to block me?

[esd10]

This idiot should have honored the sale and moved on with a leason learned about a reserve bid. The negro/cuban league collectors is really a small tight nit group of collectors and like you said let all your friends know this a-hole is shady ebayer.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Am I the only one who asked him to block me?

dunno if I can do it...the velvet mohammed ali painting he's selling is calling my name!

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Stuff trumps morals.

This is true for some, but not all. I can tell you that I, for one, will not be bidding on any of Jimmy Allen's items, based on the shady dealing he just had with Kenny, and I was planning to bid on many. Like Jimmy Allen himself said, the group of us that collects the specific kind of items he is currently selling is relatively small. But I had no idea that Kenny was bidding on that photo, and the idea that all of us got together and colluded to allow Kenny to win it at below market value isn't something even Jimmy Allen couldn't really believe. He just needs some excuse to justify backing out of this deal to sell it privately for more money, which is almost certainly what he did. Jimmy Allen might win this battle, but he will lose this war. Good luck selling the rest of those Negro League photos on ebay for what you consider to be market prices. Looks like it's private sales for you from now on. I'll be sure to warn other collectors so they don't get burned in private.

Thanks, Kenny, for bringing this scumbag to our attention. Had he not screwed you and had you not gone public with it, I might have gotten screwed as well. A lot of us might have.

-Ryan

[egri]

Oof this makes me mad. Count me in as another who will not buy from Jimmy Allen.

[Marckus99]

Sorry you came out on the wrong side of this.
I wish there was a way the seller could be held accountable.

Just sent the seller a short message - as we should all do.
And indeed, Karma is a bitch.

- Mark

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by egri

Count me in as another who will not buy from Jimmy Allen.

+1

Love the "Mr. Cole, my reputation as an honest and professional dealer directly impacts my ability to make a living" line.

Your rapidly growing reputation here as a complete #turd impacts that as well

[53Browns]

Alienating the members of this board will definitely effect his bottom line.

[ramram]

I'm suspecting it has already occurred, but has anybody made him aware of this thread? Sounds like he knows about this website.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

His feedback rating is now at 96 thanks to Kenny! With the little business that this guy does another 1 or 2 negatives and this guy will be all but finished.

[ullmandds]

i just sent him a message informing him of this thread.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i just sent him a message informing him of this thread.

instigator...

[h2oya311]

Any way for me to remember not to bid from this guy any more...or do I actually have to ask him to block me from bidding on his items?

Do not Bid list:

ebay name: americanlaureate
real name: Jimmy Allen
location: Darien, Georgia

Hopefully his "stuff" isn't too good... I promise that I will try my best to remember not to bid on his items.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

instigator...

just call me woody woodpecker!!!!

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i just sent him a message informing him of this thread.

Come on Pete, now we will have another anti-dentite on our hands!

[WillowGrove]

Kenny, thanks for posting and sorry you had to deal with this.

For when the "seller" comes on here I wanted him to read the following from a long time passionate collector....

You sir are full of it. I saw your Rickey photo, read your write ups, have been following your recent items and saved you as a seller because you sounded like a good, honest collector. However, by this one moment of greed you have shown your true colors. Nice job cheapo.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

just call me woody woodpecker!!!!

[Rickyy]

What a B.S. trying to turn it around to make it look like the bidders are at fault.... sorry to hear this Kenny...you got hosed.

Ricky Y

[SyrNy1960]

Odd how people try to justify things in their own mind, so they believe what they did is ok. Bottom line, he won the auction fair and square (by auction rules) and the seller must honor that! Seller should have put a reserve on it. By failing to do so, you get what you get. Jerk move!

[Republicaninmass]

Seller can always say he made a pricing error, and it should have been a reserve auction. It's hard for me to believe in a retail business, these practices exist. It's a terrible model to grow a business. Lose a customer, and possibly more for life, over a few hundred bucks. It's amazing how short sighted people are.

[SyrNy1960]

It also funny how when you do it to others, it's ok. But when it's done to you, not so much!

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by 3arod13

It also funny how when you do it to others, it's ok. But when it's done to you, not so much!

Am I missing something?

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Am I missing something?

Meaning that what the seller to the buyer, which he is justifying; if you reserved it and it happened to him, he wouldn't be so accepting of it.

[mrmopar]

I had a cancellation/refund this week for the first time in a long time. The seller claims to have lost the set of cards I won. It was a small set (under 50 cards), but I still had a hard time believing it, especially since I was given no warning and didn't even realize it until the other items I won showed up and this set was missing!

I asked why I was provided a refund and was told that the set was lost. It was only a $20 item. Another set was selling for about double the price, so if this seller had remorse, it was only for about $20. I am reserving judgement at the moment, but suggested in another message back that I hoped the seller was being honest and didn't in fact decide not to sell the item over sellers remorse. I have not received a response yet.

I just don't understand how anyone selling an item can lose it, especially if it was photographed. That means you are using an older or stock photo and didn't bother to check before listing said item, you are insanely disorganized or you just don't want to sell the item after all.

[irishdenny]

Jimmy Allen Races Wheel Chairs
When He's Not Stiffin Good Folks on Ebay!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TryEBBUJiUM

Jimmy, Now that Your Theory is Out!
Whatcha gonna do bout it?

You certainly can't Race Wheel Chairs!!!

Ohhh, Becha that Nose tastes just like the Nose Dive Your Business is gonna Take!
Why don't ya come on here and Xplain Some of Your other Theories to us...
Like, How your this really honest guy who stuck in Awful ebay sellin world
& you just can't figure out why you keep wake'n up in the middle of the nite tastin snot while you just lost a wheel chair race

edited to say: Sorry folks ~ I just lost my mind after read'n how Jimmy Allen just figured out how to Cancel an Ebay Auction...

[iowadoc77]

Another classic from irishdenny!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Just read this thread, didn't really know the topic behind it previously. Sorry to see the injustice that happened to you, Kenny.

I must have been pretty good at making advance predictions in order to set up this collusion scheme targeting the Washington panorama that wasn't listed yet when I posted about the current state of the Negro League collectibles market. Almost takes you back to the MLB Free Agency days of the 1980's, huh?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I must have been pretty good at making advance predictions in order to set up this collusion scheme targeting the Washington panorama that wasn't listed yet when I posted about the current state of the Negro League collectibles market. Almost takes you back to the MLB Free Agency days of the 1980's, huh?

Phil,

From here on out, should I just call you Nostradamus?

Kenny

[bcbgcbrcb]

Please don't bother me, I need to concentrate on the Power Ball numbers now.......I can see a big jackpot in my future.............

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

I had a cancellation/refund this week for the first time in a long time. The seller claims to have lost the set of cards I won. It was a small set (under 50 cards), but I still had a hard time believing it, especially since I was given no warning and didn't even realize it until the other items I won showed up and this set was missing!

I asked why I was provided a refund and was told that the set was lost. It was only a $20 item. Another set was selling for about double the price, so if this seller had remorse, it was only for about $20. I am reserving judgement at the moment, but suggested in another message back that I hoped the seller was being honest and didn't in fact decide not to sell the item over sellers remorse. I have not received a response yet.

I just don't understand how anyone selling an item can lose it, especially if it was photographed. That means you are using an older or stock photo and didn't bother to check before listing said item, you are insanely disorganized or you just don't want to sell the item after all.

This has happened to me as a seller. I archive my scans of for sale items at image event so I can potentially pull them from anywhere as needed. When it comes time to list an item for sale I usually check my inventory list and the scan archive but sometimes I get lazy and just go with the scans. Occasionally, I end up listing something I sold but did not delete from the archive. Happens.

I doubt anyone would pull a remorse on a $20 loss.

As for the OP, this Jimmy Allen sounds like a crap seller. Jimmy Allen. Jimmy Allen from Georgia who sells on eBay. But I do like the velvet Ali...