Another GAI masterpiece

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

http://tinyurl.com/53hptl

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Posted By: dstudeba

Old Judge Pack

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Posted By: leon

Without the ink overstamp dating the pack (specifically) they are making a huge assumption/guess. No way of knowing the exact year without said ink stamp on the 1883 tax stamp......if this is a new holder when will they learn?

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

the description says the pack once contained a baseball card and no longer does. so in essence youre merely looking at an empty pack and in no way being led to believe there is a card inside. if youre looking for a period piece like this, then that is what youre getting. what bothers you about it? there is the chance that maybe there wasn't a card contained in the box, but still, it is to the period. perhaps you're bothered by baseball being listed on the tab?

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Posted By: DD

There's a huge difference, since there is clearly a market for vintage packs and empty boxes that meet different criteria. For the collector that desires examples of packs that based on tax stamps, overprints, etc., likely held a baseball card, a premium will be paid.

Since GAI is primarily a sports collectibles grading service, they are implying this pack contained an Old Judge baseball card. Their sports knowledge (to the average collector) lends credibility to this label.

Bottom line is - no proof of year it was issued, it should not be labeled with the baseball designation.

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Posted By: leon

Unless there is an ink overstamp on the tax stamp, and it doesn't look like there is, then GAI is totally guessing at the year. As long as you are ok with that then everything is fine....

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Posted By: barrysloate

How come they didn't guess 1884 or 1890?

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

perhaps they shouldn't have labeled it 1887 and baseball if they dont totally know, but in the end if you're looking for a goodwin or old judge pack from the 1880s that is what youre getting here. could be some misrepresentation but also might not be. i dont know if there is a way to definitively tell if an empty pack of cigarettes once had a card in it even if you narrow it down to the precise year. for example, there are piedmont packs from the period of baseball cards that contain flag or animal or nation cards aren't there? or were the flag and other cards issued in different years? is there a way to tell if they once held a baseball card or a flag card? i actually have no idea so i'm just asking.

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Unless they've changed their lot description in the last 20 minutes, then they never said it had a BB card. The current text says "once incubated a card from Goodwin's N162 "Champions" multi-sport release." Still somewhat of an assumption on the date; I guess if you're a big fan of old-time bicycle racing then you might be willing to pony up.

Bill

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Posted By: leon

You make good points and I think you just answered the question why this is a problem. GAI guessed at the year and if it's already an open pack it's a guess that there was an N162 in it. Actually that might be a small issue for my good friends at Mastro....I am not sure N162's came in packs like this...I don't think they did actually.....but not positive. So there is a guess at the year and a guess at the possibility of a card having been in it...besides those things we are perfect....I just put a call into Mastro to see if there is an ink stamp that can be read...and then for them to do a little more research to make sure N162's came in this type of pack...again, I don't believe they did and can verigy when I get home this evening..........oh yeah, GAI shouldn't have put "baseball" on the flip......they could have put "baseball card related" and it would have been more correct imo...as it is the same type of pack that was used for the N172's....

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Posted By: leon

The flip says "baseball".....

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Posted By: leon

Mastro is going to amend the description......Now if GAI would get their stuff straight we could get something done around here......regards

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

1887 - N172

1888 - N162

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Posted By: Eric

Are there any encapsulated sealed 1887 N172 packs that anyone here knows of?

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Posted By: leon

I have heard of at least 1-2 instances of an N172 card being pulled from an unopened pack. I would guess that there ARE in fact correct packs encapsulated with the correct dates etc.....Correctly dated OJ packs are scarce but not unknown by any means.....This is still a neat OJ type pack up for auction.....and I will be bidding if it stays within a range I am comfortable with.....I can always use more OJ type packs...regards

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Posted By: JimB

There was a find of packs a few years ago that were opened. I believe it was Bill Goodwin who auctioned off the fresh-out-of-the-pack high grade N172s that resulted.
JimB

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

GAI authenticated this Old Judge Cigarette pack and states that a N162 insert card was originally in this pack. N162s are Gypsy Queen/Old Judge cards.

This incorrectly labeled GAI product should not be sold in the Mastro Auction. The bidders are being misled. The winner will be the loser. And the loser will pass it on......



Unopen OJ packs are extremely rare. In 1998, Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen purchased a collection that contained three unopened Old Judge Cigarette packs. The packs were opened and each contained a "common" player N172 card. The cards were graded by the SGC Grading Service. Two were graded mint and the third near mint.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Actually one of the "commons" that was pulled from the pack was an Alcott, Mansfields. It currently resides in an SGC 98 holder. I can only imagine what that would fetch in an auction.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I think that card sold publicly a few years back...and there was a spirited debate (on these boards, nonetheless) between Jay Miller and Michael Wentz about the true condition of the card, as there was apparently staining/discoloration on the reverse.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know the buyer of the card, and I believe he still has it. I vaguely remember some spot on the back, but I'm sure the card is quite nice (maybe not a true 98, however).

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that the SCD Grading went out of business or it could have gotten the vaunted SCD11 right from pack monicker attached to the Alcott and it would have been worth many multiples of what it is now. Then, if Christopher Morales (of Coaches Corner....with SCD's blessing.....) authenticated it, with the subsequent blessing of Don Frangiapani-Forensic Examiner, it would have been guaranteed bona fide. But, alas, it only sits in an SGC holder...........

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Posted By: dan mckee

Tom I hope you mean a GAI holder, Dan.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

It appears that that Mastro lot will remain in the auction the way it is. Returning that slab to GAI to allow GAI to relabel it without the reference to the N162 would be more resonable.



Dan - I found out that the theft of my cards took place in the Jersey City, NJ Post Office.



Barry - I do not have a picture of the back. Only:

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jerry- that is one beautiful card. I didn't realize that the label states it was removed from a pack. Actually, a pretty amazing pull when you consider how desirable an Alcott is.