When a lemon becomes lemonade.....Pirates Pack

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Posted By: leon

I realize this pack will probably date outside of the range of baseball cards but it's still kind of neat. Recently, I won a large lot of tobacciana stuff from a major auction. The description said that some of the packs had cigarettes in them. That was certainly true. What the description didn't say is that this Pirates pack has a 100% chance of having a card in it!! Several weeks after receiving the lot, I was going through everything and came to this pack. Upon holding it I couldn't believe that I can actually feel a card inside of it and it's never been opened. When I put my fingers on the outside and squeeze just a little I can feel the cardboard.....Not a huge deal but certainly a little bit exciting. I even brought it over to my partner, Scott, and had him feel of it....yeap, there is definitely a card in it.... To open or not?

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

Leon - go for it !!
=

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Leslie Westbrook

I'm not too familiar with this brand. What are the possibilities of what you might find in there?

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Posted By: MikeU

Go for it. You still have the box for display.

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Posted By: jay wolt

Go for it - sounds like fun

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Posted By: leon

There is almost 100% chance it will be a chinese type card in it....Of course there are baseball player Pirate-backed cards that are worth a small fortune too. Most likely it will stay unopened....and maybe auctioned off in the future. I am not really an unopened pack collector and I think this would be a great ancillary item to a baseball Pirate-backed card.....

The other option is to open it in front of a grading company and mark it as such on a flip.....though if GAI is the only company still doing packs then I would have to give that some serious consideration....

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Posted By: DD

Open it for sure. I'll go against the grain and say there will be a baseball card in it, a HOF'er at that.

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Posted By: Dave S

Just look at it as if you got a "free" bonus since you certainly weren't expecting any such card. So what have you got to lose...open the doggone pack, Leon!!

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Looks like you've got to open it Leon, eveyone's waiting!!

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Posted By: leon

Any idea what an unopened pack vs an opened one would bring in auction? My guess is this pack, if opened, is around $10-$25.....I think it would bring a bit more in auction, if unopened and guaranteed of a card inside....no?

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

open it. its not always about money. you're in the game for the thrill. what greater thrill than opening a 100 year old pack? if you don't do it you're gonna feel foolish when someone else does and gets the pull of a lifetime.....potentially.

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Posted By: Dave S

Leon..I absolutely agree...if your intention was to auction it?
Ali..I agree..he shouldn't be a wuss!!

Silence the majority and open it!!

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Posted By: Anthony N.

We're less than a month away from the National- open it at the Net 54 dinner.

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Anthony may be on to something, you could have a personal auction and opening at the dinner. I won't be able to attend but would look forward to hearing the results.

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Posted By: Rob D.

The majority of responses are proof that it's always easier to spend someone else's money.

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Posted By: bigfish

Get er done... It is easy for us to say open it. I would have to myself. I could not stand not knowing. Good luck with it.

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Posted By: leon

Ali- No, it's not always about the money. I absolutely agree. I get more enjoyment by adding to my collection than I do about the money involved in the hobby. With that being said I admit I look for ways I can help subsidize it. These cards ain't cheap, ya' know?

Anthony- I might think about doing that (opening at our Net54 Dinner)...There might even be a few grading company reps at our Net54 Dinner to observe it. Actually, I would probably let folks at the Net54 Dinner carefully feel it inside the pack first. How many times do you get to feel a card in a 100'ish yr old pack? This was my first though I know it's not extremely rare to find a card in a pack. This is kind of interesting in a minor sort of way (note self deprecation vis a vis Jewish-Collector)...


edited "gramma' a little

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Leon,

Have it X-rayed.

If you get too impatient/curious, may I have the cigarettes? Smokes are $10 a pack in Canada!

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Posted By: Bilko G

Leon, if you do decide to open this try and get it on video for us. An event like this does not happen often.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Sudden thought: How did the fact that the unopened pack contain a card slip past both the consignor (assuming there was one) and auction house? If the auction house did know it, how was such a detail left out of the description of the lot? It's not like a card inside an unopened pack is the same as a rare variation of a card that could easily be missed, something that takes a certain expertise to notice. Seems like sloppy work.

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Posted By: Tim

I think the idea of openening the pack at the Net54 dinner is the perfect idea.

How many people will get the opportunity to experience what it's like to pull a card from an unopened pack? If it's not about the money and truly about collecting I don't see how you could sell the experience to someone else. And it would be great to allow the group that you share so much of this hobby with a chance to take part in this special occasion.

Hopefully if won't be a case of Geraldo and Al Capone's vault.

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Posted By: Dave Haas

I'll trade my 1971 Topps "ghost" card for it. As I recall, you valued my card at $45,000.

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Posted By: leon

I have to give the opening of it some thought. IF I decide to do it I couldn't think of a more befitting place than the Net54 Dinner. It probably won't be a baseball card but I guarantee, and folks at the Dinner might be able to attest to the fact beforehand, there is definitely a card inside it...or a piece of cardboard that feels like one .

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

you should no doubt try to subsidize your collection when you can. but as you said in your first post, you bought the lot not expecting anything but opened packs. the fact that you found a pack that you strongly believe does have a card in it should be a clear omen to you. that pack was meant to find you and you should open the pack. i'm a believer of omens. even if its not a baseball card, which is most likely isn't, the thrill was meant to be yours and i don't know how anyone could pass that up.

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Posted By: leon

Ali, you make very good points. The only reason I could pass the chance up is because of that next card that I HAVE to have. We'll see how it goes...
But then too, if I do open it, will I be ready for the "let down" when it's found to contain a $3 chinese card? Oh the drama!!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Personally, I'd consign that puppy to an auction house (other than my own, if I had one) to avoid the temptaion and realize the maximum potential profit. You could always use the money made to buy a "sure thing", as opposed to

A. Being in a constant state of suspense, or
B. Ripping into the pack to find a fish card

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

there would be a great story behind that 3 dollar chinese card that took 100 years to find you. some would say the memory is priceless. i totally agree and see your point though that you can get the sure thing with the profits. but looking at the cards you usually post, it doesn't seem like you're struggling.

edited to add: i'm also curious about something. i know you strongly think there is a card in the pack, but if you auctioned the pack and it turned out there wasn't you'd have to refund the purchase and lose the thrill all at the same time.

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Posted By: leon

I understand what you are saying about the potential for a card NOT to be in it. I am not sure how much more than 100% sure I can be that there is a card, or a piece of cardboard, in the pack. As I said in another thread today I am always skeptical about a "no guarantee" sale. Of course I would/will guarantee it if I sell it....

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Posted By: Phil B

Leon- the likely truth (which I'm guessing you already know) is that the pack has more value being auctioned as an unopened pack then it will have should you crack it. Pre-war sealed packs consistently seem to sell for far more than the card(s) that could possibly be discovered inside. Your posts also seem to hint that it is possible that there is a piece of plain cardboard inside (maybe to help keep the cigarettes crush proof)?

That being said I will confess that I have purchased graded sealed packs in the past (50s-70s) and I open 'em every time! Have never had a single great pull and have often questioned the legitimacy of the "sealed" packs. But it doesn't take away the thrill!

If the money truly doesn't matter- go for the thrill. But if the money matters even just a little - consign it.

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Posted By: leon

I spoke with Richard D earlier. The baseball cards came in slide shell packs (only) and this isn't one. I am not sure why I would open it now and when it is sold, if still unopened, will be sold with a card guaranteed in it but stating plainly it won't be a baseball card..All in all still a neat pack just not an extremely valuable one......regards

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Posted By: Paul S

Nevermind, my post crossed with with Leon's, which answered my questions.

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Posted By: Alan

Leon -
Remember the movie Risky Business w/Tom Cruise ? As you open the pack at the Net54 dinner, you say (just as Cruise said), "Sometimes you gotta say what the ...."

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

and my question is straight forward and not meant to suggest he is incorrect about the slide and shell. I would assume as well the cards would have been packaged in a S&S. Just wondering whether that is just conjecture or a difinitive conclusion that can be substantiated.... Some things to think about - cards were a slightly later issue than those found in ATC and other brands - were specially issued (if at all) - soft paper packages were used since the 1870's - pirate brand was cheap and extremely popular in the East. Unsure how long the character card production went on - but it apparently went on for some time and a lot of these cards have survived. Not so for the baseball cards. IF they were in packs at all I still believe thay would be found in the traditional S&S but would like to see sometime positive - perhaps an advertisement like the Hindu card or sweet caps S.L.rs coming out of the pack as are known in the hobby.

edited to add:
with unopened material - one sells the sizzle and not the steak.

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Posted By: leon

I thought the same thing. Has a baseball card ever been found in a slide shell Pirate pack that was unopened? We know the Pirate baseball cards have the same fronts as T215 type 1's that were put out between 1910-1912.....Without proof of one coming in a slide shell, with the correct overstamp, I am not sure how we definitively state they came in one.
Although I do collect the packs several other board members have studied them far more than I so I defer to ya'll....

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Leon told me that it says "Issued in U.S." on the side of box or something. I heard that pirate packs were issued to the soldiers in World War I or possible World War II. Can't remember. Pirate issued Bird cards in 1916:

http://cigarettecardinserts.co.uk/catull_files/wil008.htm

The pack has rice paper and not cellophane. Not really sure what year it came from. But can't be prior to 1914. I may be wrong. Jon may be able to provide more info. Dunno about whether or not pirate issued T215 cards in soft packs.

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Here's a slide & shell that sold last week. From H.O.Wills. No tax stamp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/c-1912-Pirate-Cigarettes-Full-Pack-T215-Baseball-Era_W0QQitemZ300230271993QQihZ020QQcategoryZ44QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

I'm no expert on packs but I did stay at a Holiday... wait - nevermind. First of all I'm not sure it's even been proven that the cards actually were inserted into the Pirate packs or that they were in fact distributed (not my area so.....). I also thought that the issue date was determined to be after the ATC breakup but I'm unsure of that as well. I will say that other than larger pouch type packages - cards are not thought to have ever been included in paper packs until the 1950's. I doubt anyone here could name a soft cigarette pack associated with cards or perhaps any pre-atc breakup soft cigarette pack period. I have not seen the sides of the pack Leon has and even so - not sure what I could make of it except to narrow the range by war dates. One exception might be my spectacular Kinney silk pouches from the 1880's but that's a story for another day Anyhow there are 2/3 super advanced pack collectors in foreign lands. They might be a resource. I really only casually collect the packs anymore - more interested in accumulating what information I can garner. In any event I have handled and/or examined over a thousand packs for various reasons - not only or even always with an eye on their relationship to cards - as I collect early tobacco primarily as art. I will make note here that I have never owned or even seen pre-1917 packs with rice paper or onion skin wraps. I know a find of the Piedmont packs were found in the mid-1990's that were being sold as containing cards that I THINK was supposed to be wrapped that way. If one were really interested a start might be the patent office records. Leon if you can feel around on all four sides and feel a distinctly seperate entity - I'd suggest not opening it BTW besides a bird or chinese character card - it might be an advertising insert. Sorry for rambling...

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Leon - if you are available, give me a call at my office today 212-336-4256 or shoot me an email and I'll call you.