T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In light of the most recent "phony" T206 Red Cobb with a DRUM back, I thought it would be informative to post the following
list of DRUM cards. In addition, I have observed a commonality between four of the tougher T-brand backs that I feel is worth
discussing here.


1st.....Shown here are the four T206 backs produced for the 350 Series that have identical stylized FRAME and lettering. It
is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed these four backs. The design
is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.
These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot
Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the
availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-
ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.
Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC
was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.

However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:
Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in
predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200
cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.






This list reflects 28 years of recorded DRUM backs......there are a total of 80 Subjects.
Of these, 30 are from the 350/460 Series.

Arellanes
Atz
Baker
Barbeau
Barry (Milwaukee)
Becker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Burch (fldg)
Burke
Carr
Chance (yellow)
Chase (dark cap)
Collins (Minnesota)
Crawford (bat)
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (bat)
Dorner
Downs
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fldg)
Engle
Evers (Chi-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Graham (Boston)
Griffith (bat)
Hallman
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Jackson
Jennings (dance)
Johnson (pitch)
Jordan (bat)
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Konetchy (glove lo)
Krause (portrait)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Lattimore
Maddox
Magee (bat)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McQuillan (bat)
Milan
Moeller
Moran
Moriarty
Murray (bat)
Myers (fldg)
Overall (yel sky)
Pfeister (throw)
Phillippe
Pickering
Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)
Randall
Rudolph
Seymour (throw)
Speaker
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Stephens
Street (fldg)
Sweeney (bat)
Sweeney (fldg)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Wagner (bat/right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Zimmerman


Net54er's....feel free to add to this list any T206 DRUM cards that do not appear on it.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - an authentic red Cobb w/ Drum sold last year in a SGC AUT slab.

- Jon

Edited to add: it was lot 646 in the November 2007 Hunt Auction... http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=32&lot_num=646&lot_qual=

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

"You will note that an original (authentic) Red Cobb with a DRUM back has yet to be sighted."

Does this mean SGC got it wrong in labeling the one Jon pointed out as authentic?

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Posted By: JimB

I believe Brian Weisner noted knowing of more than one legitimate example of the red Cobb/Drum. Perhaps he will chime in here before long.
JimB

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Posted By: dan mckee

Are u ignoring me?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
I will post scans of 2 legit Cobb/Drum's when I get back home... I don't think my wife could find them in my massive scan gallery. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

Ted,
Here is a list I have on file and you can add Slagle and Strang. Also this list does not include the Hunt find.

114 I think

350 subjects:
Bill Abstein
Frank Arellanes
Jake Atz
Jap Barbeau
Shad Barry ML (Milwaukee)
Emil Batch ML
Beals Becker
Jimmy Burke ML
Charley Carr ML
Doc Casey ML
Josh Clark ML
Jimmy Collins Minneapolis (HOF)
Bunk Congalton ML
Paul Davidson ML
Frank Delehanty ML (Delahanty, Louisville)
Bill Dineen (Dinneen)
Wild Bill Donovan (throwing)
Gus Dorner ML
Jerry Downs ML
Clyde Engle
Jerry Freeman ML
Peaches Graham (Boston)
Bill Hallman ML
Harry Hinchman ML (Toledo)
Dick Hoblitzell
Solly Hofman
Miller Huggins Hands at Mouth (HOF)
Jimmy Jackson ML
Joe Kelley (HOF)
Ed Killian (portrait)
Otto Knabe
Harry Krause (pitching) "White" cap
Harry Krause (portrait)
Rube Kroh
Bill Lattimore ML
Jimmy Lavender ML
Ed Lennox
Paddy Livings tone (Livingston)
Nick Maddox
Billy Maloney ML
Doc Marshall
John McAleese
George McBride
Dan McGann ML
Clyde Milan
Fred Mitchell ML (Toronto)
Pat Moran (Chicago)
George Moriarty
Red Murray (batting)
Billy Nattress ML
Simon Nichols (Nicholls) (batting)
Deacon Phillippe
Ollie Pickering ML
Jack Quinn
Newt Randall ML
Bob Rhoades (Rhoads) (hands at chest)
Charlie Rhodes
Lou Ritter ML
Dick Rudolph ML
Boss Schmidt (portrait)
Jim Scott
Jimmy Slagle ML
Fred Snodgrass (batting)
Tris Speaker (R) (HOF)
Charlie Starr
Sam Strang ML
Gabby Street (portrait)
Bill Sweeney (Boston)
Jake Thielman ML
John Titus
Bob Unglaub
Jack Warhop
Heinie Zimmerman

350/460 subjects:
Home Run Baker (R) (HOF)
Chief Bender No Trees (HOF)
Heinie Berger
Al Burch (fielding)
Frank Chance Yellow Portrait (HOF)
Hal Chase Black Cap
Ty Cobb Red Portrait (HOF)
Ty Cobb Bat off Shoulder (HOF)
Sam Crawford With Bat
Mickey Doolan (batting)
Larry Doyle (N.Y. Natl., with bat)
Kid Elberfeld (Wash., fielding)
Johnny Evers Chicago (yellow sky) (HOF)
Lou Fiene (portrait)
Lou Fiene (throwing)
Clark Griffith Batting (HOF)
Hughie Jennings Two Hands (HOF)
Walter Johnson Glove at Chest (R) (HOF)
Tim Jordan (Brooklyn, batting)
Red Kleinow Boston
Ed Konetchy (glove near ground)
Joe Lake (St Louis. No ball, r.h. visible)
Sherry Magee (with bat)
Rube Manning (pitching)
Christy Mathewson Dark Cap (HOF)
George McQuillan (with bat)
Danny Murphy (batting)
Orval Overall (hand face level)
Barney Pelty (vertical photo)
Jake Pfeister (Pfiester) (throwing)
Ed Reulbach (no glove showing)
Cy Seymour (throwing)
Harry Steinfeldt (with bat)
Jeff Sweeney (New York)
Heinie Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Kaiser Wilhelm (with bat)
Ed Willetts (Willett)
Vic Willis Batting
Hooks Wiltse (pitching)

[Archive]

Posted By: Millerhouse

I can add a Purtell with a Drum back to the list.

Millerhouse

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks JON,
1st time I have seen a Red Cobb/Drum in 28 years that I have confidence in, that it wasn't a re-backed one.

I'll add this card to the list.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks JIM R

This a is great start....let's keep adding more T206 Subjects with DRUM backs to the list..

Also, Guys and Gals

I would appreciate any of your thoughts on my "American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-DRUM (ABCD) connection" ?

With the added DRUM's to the tally, this "ABCD connection" is proving to be more than just a "wild" hypothesis.


BRIAN W

I look forward to your inputs.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

1 more addition
there was a Herbie Moran on ebay a couple weeks ago

If you check the 54 archive there was a thread on this and between Art M., Brian W. and Bill H. the list was a little over 100. I am sure that is where I got my list.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc S.

Knabe to the mix.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted,

With regard to asking for opinions on the backs, although all four are near matches, I do feel that the AB back is slightly different which makes me wonder is the AB were released before the other 3 - possibly summer of 1910 with Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf coming later.

Specifically, when you look at the 3: Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf - they are perfect matches. You could literally paste one over the top and everything lines up. While AB is very close, there are differences between the AB backs and the other 3:

1.) 350 Subjects appears on 1 line, not 2 lines
2.) the "g" in Cigarettes is slightly less stylized
3.) the "a's" in "American Beauty" do not match the "a" in "Broad Leaf"
4.) The "r" in "American" does not match the "r's" in "Broad" or "Drum"

Thoughts?

- Jon

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My 1st order comparison is the Frame design, which I think you will find is perfectly repeated on all four brands,

Now, I believe I said that the AB's were most likely issued first (Summer of 1910); and, subsequently the BL, Cy,
and DRUM. And, the proof of this is in their sheer numbers. AB's are considerably more plentiful than Cycle, and
of course Broad Leaf and DRUM.

My theory is simple....the later that year that these 350 series cards were produced....the less of them that were
printed (hence, less are available 99 years later).

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I did quite a few searches and couldn't find any threads that had extensive DRUM lists. Perhaps, I didn't search enough. So,
I posted my list.
Do you have the URL link to the Net54 thread you referred to ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Ted,

I will try to find it.
I just remember copying the Drum list from a thread. There was a list of 70 or so, then Bill H. gave his input and the list wentover 100.

[Archive]

Posted By: David R

Ted,

The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card. I have it with an American Beauty back and I just saw that card sell on eBay this week with a Broadleaf back. I noticed that card, however, is not on your Drum back list. Does it exist with the Drum back and, if not, does that disprove the connection?

David R

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your......
"The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card."

Not so....I have a Bresnahan (Cycle 350 back). Therefore, given your two backs, I fully expect a DRUM back to show up eventually.

I am going to post all the known T206's that conform to my "A-B-C-D connection".

TED Z

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Here you go Ted

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191807064/last-1192475008/Re-+T206+DRUM+backs+population+report

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks much......I was searching back 3 to 5 years ago.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I don't have access to my data at the moment, but I can tell you that there are many similiarities with these four brands. I do not believe they are perfect matches, just as most of the other patterns in this "release" have abnormalities. Bresnahan batting is an interesting example... As I have always felt that it was the "Super Print" of the 350 series...

I have the following (Bresnahan) tougher backs, and I have seen several of each, but NO Drum's...

2 Broad leaf's
1 Carolina Bright
2 American Beauty's
1 Cycle
1 EPDG
1 Old Mill

Personally, I believe that Drum's are scarce because they were only introduced as a Cigarette brand in late 1910 and had little or no time to develop a customer base before the 1911 ATC breakup. Drum had always been a loose tobacco brand before Duke aquired it, and it returned to a loose brand after the breakup.

PS I'll add more whe I get home.........

Ted, here's a real Drum/Cobb

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.
As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.

I'm looking for a CHASE (blue portrait) with a DRUM back to touch all "four bases".

Abstein
Arellanes
Barbeau
Batch
Clark
Congalton
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dineen
Downs
Engle
Hinchman (Toledo)
Ed Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Kroh
Maloney
Milan
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Chicago)
Nattress
Purtell
Randall
Rhodes
Slagle
Speaker
Strang
Unglaub

And, here are the Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"......

Chance (portrait-yellow)
Evers (yellow sky)



TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You are a good ole buddy....you always come thru with the good stuff.....thanks for the info.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Moran - Providence

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Posted By: barry arnold

Ted,
This ABCD connection is most interesting and may well be as seminal a contribution to the hobby as your Primacy of Piedmont theory.

I would like to reraise Jon Canfield's question, if I may. In your initial
premise, you maintained that the 4 backs have identical stylized Frame and
lettering. You go on to say that it is probably safe to conclude that that same artist at ALC designed these four backs---the design is exactly the same...just the brand name differs.
Jon agrees that D,C, and B are perfect matches but underscores that while
AB is close, there are differences... .
Your response to Jon is that your 1st order of comparison is the Frame design.

Since it is clear, I believe, that Jon's nuancing of the ABCD connection is correct, do you continue to maintain that the same artist designed these 4 backs? Do you think that the differences which Jon elucidates simply point to the AB's being printed at a different date from the other 3, providing corroboration for your point regarding BCD's printing simultaneity.

great work, Ted
best,
Barry

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Guys,

This frame discussion has me wondering about the dimensions of the frame. I have one Broadleaf, no Drums... so I'm not able to make a precise comparision.

What I'm thinking is that the AB frame is done first. Look at how nicely "Beauty" fits in between those curly-ques (Barry, how do I spell that?). Then the other brands come along... "Cigarettes" looks a bit cramped in there, doesn't it?

The American Beauty cards are not as wide, as we all know, 'cause the American Beauty cigarette packages were slimmer. And it seemed that from a thread about Broadleaf not long ago that they too are a bit slimmer. My one Broadleaf looks ever so slightly thinner than a normal card. Cycle cards are full size, I think. And I suspect Drums are but I do not have one. If American Beauty cards came before B, C, & D, it seems American Litho could have either kept the same size frame for all cards, the easiest; or engrave a new frame that would better fit the normal size cards, requiring additional work.

So... do the frames on all the cards seem exactly the same size? Are AB frames smaller? And are Broadleaf frames slightly smaller too??

Frank.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Always great to hear from you, you are certainly one who appreciates these subtleties regarding the Monster.

OK, there is no argument regarding the Frame design on these four brands. Incidently Barry....of all basic 15
T-brands.....AB, BL, Cy, and DRUM are the only backs that share the same design.

Let's look at the lettering style (I show these two for illustrative purposes)....what words all 4 have in common:

1....CIGARETTES

2....Base Ball Series

3....the type style is identical for "350 SUBJECTS".....but, AMERICAN BEAUTY requires 2 lines, therefore "350
SUBJECTS" is printed on one line.

4....all four T-Brands are "Factory No. 25, 2nd Dist. VA"


Now, regarding the trivial differences in the large lettering of the T-brands......

1....the "A" variability between "American Beauty" and "Broad Leaf", I attribute to economy of space.

2....I see no difference in the "E" in "AMERICAN" and "LEAF"....and, an extremely minor difference in the "E"
in "BEAUTY".

3....The "R" differs (slightly) between "AMERICAN", "LEAF", and "DRUM".


Barry, I am no expert on artwork; however, I have a great friend who is a professional artist. I will seek his
opinion on this subject. And, I will report back to you.

In any event, whether it was the same artwork (or not), the thrust of my point on the "A-B-C-D connection"
was meant to provide some insight into why certain T-brand backs are much tougher than others....based on
the time frame when they were issued.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Great question.....

All four T-brand FRAMES are identical in size.....2 7/16" by 1 1/4"

Best regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: RayB

Once again Ted Z energizes a scholarly post on the beloved Monster.
Thanks Ted. Great reading.
RayB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Good to hear from you. How's that EPDG set coming along ?

TED Z

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Posted By: barry arnold

Many thanks, Ted, for your carefully articulated and cogent response.
I look forward to hearing the contributions of your professional artist friend,too.
You continue to help us see the excitement available to all of us when scholarly research is done.
many thanks for your scholarly efforts,

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

The nuances of T206 are not something that I know a lot about, but based on the posts in this thread, I thought the following images might be of interest. I took the above posted backs and superimposed the AB over the others. #2 is mostly to show the different in the "Cigarettes" text (and similarity in "Base Ball Series" text), though the border otherwise matches.





Let me know if there's a better/different combo that you'd like to see.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thanks, Chris, for the fancy image work.


So Ted, others....

Is this correct?

1 - American Beauty cards were the first of the 4 ABCD's to be printed and distributed.

2 - Broad Leaf cards (2 separate words) are not of normal width, nor are they as slender as American Beauty cards; AB's are 1/16th of an inch skinnier, and BL's 1/32nd of an inch skinnier, than normal cards. I think this from that other Broad Leaf thread, personal observation, and the scan above Chris provided. I suggest that a lack of awareness of this odd dimension would be why SGC has graded several as 'Authentic', when in fact they really weren't trimmed.

3 - The printing sequence was AB 350 w/o frame, AB 350 w/ frame, Cycle 350, BL 350, Drum 350, AB 460, Cycle 460, BL 460.

4 - I speculate that the sequence above ended before Drum 460s would have been issued, hence there are none.


I'm just guessing and wondering about these 4 points. Comments?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us. The Lettering on the backs of these four T-brands
were not typeset by American Litho. This lettering was hand sketched by an artist and then transfer onto printing plates.

2nd....Sorry buddy, but I have to change the order of sequence of the different T206 backs. Here is how I see it (and why).

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Summer 1910 (re. Scot Reader's T206 book)....Includes 350-only series and
the Six Super-Prints

CYCLE 350 Fac. #25 VA......Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series

BROAD LEAF 350 Fac. #25 VA....Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series

DRUM 350 Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350-only series and 350/460 series

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (No Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350/460 series

CYCLE 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series

BROAD LEAF 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Fac. #42 NC....Spring 1911....350/460 series and 460-only series (Except the 6 Super-Prints)


TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You asked...."Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!"

Have you read Kevin Struss' T205 article in the VCBC (circa mid-1990's) ?

Kevin has put together several T205 sets and if I recall correctly, his article might have an
answer to your ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

I'm ok with that sequence... wonder why AB went from frame to no frame then back to frame?


And what do you think about the width of Broad Leaf cards, might they be 1/32 wider than ABs and 1/32nd narrower than the other cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

AB 460 is Frame-less




TED Z

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Posted By: Marc

Ted,
I don't post much but read the board every day. I always especially enjoy your thoughtful and thought provoking research and posts. Regarding back designs, I have always felt that the Piedmont and Tolstoi backs were identical as well. I don't know what, if anything, that adds to this discussion but I think it's interesting to note. I have also noticed the ABCD similarities and feel that your explanation makes a lot of sense. Keep up the great work!

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Posted By: Anonymous

"1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us."

I'm not really sure either, other than it shows that the frames do match up exactly. I thought that was interesting.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Excellent observation of the similarity between the PIEDMONT and TOLSTOI artwork.

Furthermore, I'm impressed with the darker BLUE color of your Piedmont 460/42 back. I have several of these backs;
and, everyone of them is a very light Blue.

I'm curious....who is on the front of this card ?

Thanks for your kind words,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

Re: Tolstoi/Piedmont, I did the same with the two images provided. As you can see, the frames are very similar to be sure, but at least on these two examples, do not match perfectly.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK, if my rule is valid on the "A-B-C-D connection", there should be a DRUM back for my all-time favorite T206 card......the blue Chase ?

I have this Chase with 15 of his T206 backs......including AB 350 (Frame), CYCLE 350, and BROAD LEAF 350. So, the Chase/DRUM would
complete the A-B-C-D "homerun".

But, so far all the data we have regarding DRUM backs indicates that this Chase card has not been found.

Any help on finding this Chase would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc

Ted,
The front of the Piedmont card is Lajoie (with bat). I agree that this example is a darker blue than most others I have seen.

On a side note, the scan of the backs that you just posted above made me realize the similarity in frame design of Polar Bear and Old Mill backs. Not identical but close enough to make the case that it was likely the work of the same artist.

Also, I have noticed that Cycle backs (especially the 460 series) seem to be much tougher than they are often given credit for. Most rankings I have seen place them in the middle range of scarcity with Tolstoi, EPDG, AB, Old Mill, etc but I have seen and owned far more of all of these backs than Cycles. I don't pay much attention to the population reports but I would go so far as to say that I even see more Hindus than Cycles. This would seem to corroborate your theory that Cycles are most akin to Broadleaf and Drum backs though they are clearly not quite to that level of scarcity.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Great find on the Lajoie (bat) with the Piedmont 460/42 back....a very rare card, indeed.

Your observation on the Frame of the Old Mill and Polar Bear backs is a good one, as these two were available about the same time.

The CYCLE 350 cards are tougher than most give them credit for. The CYCLE 460 cards are very tough and I feel that these T206's
are more difficult to find than they are currently ranked.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- goto sleep!

just kidding...seriously tho, great research and insights, as always.

MS

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Just get in from partying ?

Isn't 2 AM is a little early for you......

Be good,
TED

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Posted By: MVSNYC

actually last night was an early one for me...my night off, if you will...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Getting back to you after getting my artist buddy's opinion on the A-B-C-D designs. The lettering on all four of these backs
is definitely hand sketched. The BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM designs are identical and suggest that they were drawn by
the same artist.

The American Beauty differs ever so slightly that it might have been drawn by the same artist, or by another. In any event,
the AB design certainly set the style for the other three. Given the fact that the AB 350 (Frame) cards are more available
than either the BL 350, CY 350, or DRUM....it appears to suggest that there was an appreciable lead time for this AB brand.

One very surprising fact evident here, is that as scarce as the DRUM cards are.....approx. 80 from the 350-only Series and
40 (of the possible 56 subjects) in the 350/460 Series....for a total of 120 have been confirmed. And, I think more 350-only
Subjects will eventually be found.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

many thanks for the very helpful information from your artist friend and yourself.
the conclusions drawn are very convincing methinks.
many thanks for a most illuminative thread, Ted.

best,

barry