Broadleaf 460 Going Up at 3PM EST - 1/9/07 - Sold Out 35 Minutes

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Posted By: Jim Dale

We're going to divide up another Broadleaf 460 today. At noon PST or 3 PM EST cardtarget.com will issue 270 partial shares its 5th broadleaf 460 card. The community already shares owners of 3 individual broadleaf 460's and a 4th that is part of a 36 card "backs" set graded by SGC. The card being divided up today is Red Klienow a Boston Variation graded SGC 30-2. It is being brought to the community by its owner who is keeping 10% for himself so 27 shares won't be sold.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

So can I ask where will this card be held for storage durning it's time in the "community"?

Thanks,
Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: Jim Dale

There are some pretty well spelled out terms and conditions on the cardtarget site. It outlines the cards are insured and safe housed: From their user agreement:

Merchandise Holding and Insurance
All merchandise collectively owned by the participants in the CardTarget shares marketplace will be kept in a secure, temperature and light controlled environment. All items valued at over $10,000 will be kept in a bank vault or safe deposit box. All items will be covered by an insurance policy by a major insurance corporation specializing in the insurance of collectables.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Thanks for the fast reply. Becasue I am lazy and just want the quick versons here, So are these cards stored by cardtarget.com and if so who pays for the insurance and storage fees? Also who regulates the transportaion and overveiw of this inventory?

Thanks again,
Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: Jim Dale

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/user_agreement.cgi

The storage and insurance Cardtarget is currently paying for. I can't speak for them - I'm not associated with them - just a happy customer. My understanding is they hope to make enough from the initial sale of partial shares and from trading fees they charge as shares are bought and sold to cover these ongoing expenses. I know this agreement reserves them the right to charge fees since storage and insurance must be paid for as long as the card remains in the market place.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

the few vintage cards are not liquid at their total share price, there's no way to ever sell a card and the investors cash out or see a windfall. Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears the bid/sell price is the only way one could ever make any profit??

as an example

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1391550096>

this card is worth no more than $1,500 tops, the shares total $2,400+.

Scott

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Thanks again for the fast reply. I thought you where affiliated with them for some reason. I have no idea why I thought that. I just jumped to a conclusion. Sorry about that.

Ok see here's where I have the problem with this and I would like to note that these are my opinions and all are initialed to them. So here I go....

The problem: I think anyone "investing" in this kind of venture will hurt the hobby, because....

The goal of this endeavor, from what "I" take from reading the site, is to let the little guy own a piece of what they can't normally own because the cost is to high. See I think this site is helping this (to use terms that might suit this conversation) bull card market by competing against possible signal owners. They are creating a service in the long run, if it takes off (which I'm sure it won't) really does a disservice to the hobby at larger, big collectors and small because they will all have to compete at these new share holders bid levels therefore driving the market higher and ever tougher for a signal owner to posses these cards.

Who comes up with the share split of a card? It seems to correlate with the thought value of the card. If that is the case I think you might want to re-think the $2,700 for the T206 BL 460 you just bought stock in. (270 shares & $10 = $2,700 right.) Also who is setting these values if the card was just given in by a owner and not won at auction? Sounds like a lot can be manipulated in that kind of scenario. Hypothetically speaking here, the owner sells at a set high price (over market value) and then buys the card back, at a loss to share holders, because the card was first bought to high and would naturally fall. It's like handing the guy money for holding his cards a little bit. While the site really doesn't get hurt if the cards bottom falls out as they got all there transaction fees already. WOW cool give me money for some card I already own and I will keep some share of it then buy it back for less when they try to sell it at auction. Hey maybe they will have there own auctions to sell the cards? Man they can get all the fees for everything. This all sounds very very shady and to me illegal without some kind of government or outside regulations. I have not really looked into the legal side to this but I think I might a little more now as this ultimately effects the prices of the cards I like to buy.

Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

See Scott has it right here these prices are not right for some of these cards. I think i might take this to the main board tonight and see what people think.

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Posted By: J Levine

This sounds like a very risky business concept. As Scott points out, the shares outweigh the card value. Sounds almost like a "Producers" type of situation. We sell 175% of the value of the card and hope that noone notices...

The unnamed insurance company worries me as well. No info. on the FAQ (which is incomplete) or the site map as to backers, insurance, holding, etc.

Also, how do I verify that the card actually exists? Let's say I use one of my old scans and sell 300 shares...then walk away from CardTarget.

Your info. on the site if woefully lacking.

I am not convinced.

Joshua

BTW, If anyone want to buy my fair BL460 back common for $4000, I will sell it!

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Posted By: Mike Masinick

Hi guys, I am one of the co-founders of CardTarget.com and this thread was just brought to my attention. We have been "beat up" already in the main forums here and I have encouraged our users not to mention CardTarget on this board again for that reason. I'm sure if you do a search for CardTarget you'll find a couple old threads with some of the answers you seek. If you don't and still have questions, feel free to email me.

You all seem to be viewing this as purely an investment "scheme" in sports cards, which it surely is not. I don't expect you guys to understand the mentality of our users who would rather own a small part of a nice card rather than a beater of the same card - but I also don't expect you to judge them. We are simply a community of guys, many from the same background who were/are interested in eTopps cards, who enjoy collecting together. Yes, obviously the "stock market feel" is heavy on our website, but rest assured that it is an open and completely transparent marketplace. With the exception of the initial sale, the prices are set by the people who buy and sell the cards. For every example of an overvalued card (which I certainly admit there are several) I can show you one that is undervalued. All cards are held in a safety deposit box and our insurance policy is with the same company that many of you use for your collectables. I'll be happy to fax you a copy if you are a shareholder of ours.

Please excuse the interuption and, as I said above, let me know if you have any questions.

mike@cardtarget.com

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Posted By: robert a

Mike,

You have been "beat up" here in the past.

However, you've always responded in an extremely courteous and professional manner. Thanks for that.

Robert

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Hi Mike,

Thanks for coming on this board and posting. That says a lot for you and your company in my eyes. Most people even though they know they will get bashed will not post here at all just because how they conduct there business is not popular. So thanks for speaking out as you have in the past.

So I will keep it here as long as Leon will keep it here. After all it does have to do with the selling and buying of vintage baseball cards.

I think you have it right that I will never understand the mentality of your users demographic. Nor do I expect them to understand my mentality (i.e How could he spend that much on one stupid card.)......... I typed more but I deleted it I will leave it at that!

Thanks for replying,
Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: J Levine

Mike,
Thanks for the response...you are right, I would rather own a beater and a piece of a nice card. I understand a little better what cardtarget is and do feel a little better about it. Again, thanks for the quick and appropriate response.

Joshua

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Didn't want to beat you guys up, I am intrigued by the concept and can see how it COULD work. It just seems the Tobacco cards are not liquid and could never be sold at the inflated total share price to liquidate the position if you will, and pay the shareholders off, In otherwords the shares are overvalued . Now if the concept is to hold the card indefinitely and let the shares trade on a free market, I get that too.

I can see if you had a really tough card, which some are and 100% of the shares started at level comensurate with the value of the card and then the traders followed the price of the card as if it were appreciating on the auction arena or Ebay it would make more sense.

As to your company being legit and owning all the cards and storing etc. I have no doubts or qualms in that area.

Please reply if you could, I think you'll find a very receptive audience, especially since you are open and upfront. Trust me as you know on this board, hiding or shuffling the facts will be a poorer option.

Scott

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Posted By: Mike Masinick

Hi Scott,
Remember that we actually have one of your cards in our marketplace that I bought from you at the National (Vezina). Basically the way things work is that we "mark up" the price that we sell the cards for about 5-6% over what we paid to cover the insurance for 18 months and the credit card fees associated with the initial sale of the shares.
I think the biggest thing people here don't "get" is that we aren't trying to simply buy cards and sell them for more than we paid at a later date. We truly are trying to build a nice collection loosely based on the PSA Top 200 cards in the hobby and other "neat" cards that we find along the way. Occasionally a card does sell from our marketplace, but we don't actively market them for sale except the occasional eBay auction.
The most important thing that I want you guys to understand is that the prices of the cards are being set by the demand of the shares in our marketplace. If one person starts buying up the shares, the price goes up... and if one person "dumps" shares that they own, the price can and does go down. Each of our item pages has an "ownership listing" that lists the top 10 owners of each item. This is done to discourage any type of market manipulation and give people the satisfaction that all sales of every share are accounted for and available to be viewed by the general public. So all it takes is one person to drive up the share price of a card beyond what you (and I) would consider a reasonable price. Then it is up to each shareholder to decide if the shares are overvalued and sell, or if they feel the shares might continue to go up (and buy/hold) or simply be a collector and hold on to their shares. If an individual shareholder feels that a card is overvalued at any time they can sell the share. They are not "locked into" the share until the card is sold.
Our users do have a fascination with the Broadleaf 460s... I'll give you that. But look at cards like our T205 Matty and 49 Leaf Ruth which I believe are at least fairly valued if not undervalued.
I'm very happy to continue this conversation if this thread stays reasonably nice. I know you guys have questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

Mike

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Posted By: Mike Masinick

Scott, you said:

"I can see if you had a really tough card, which some are and 100% of the shares started at level comensurate with the value of the card and then the traders followed the price of the card as if it were appreciating on the auction arena or Ebay it would make more sense."

I agree with you 100%. This is the ultimate goal of the marketplace, and if everyone in our marketplace were smart, educated, and only cared about money, this is what would happen. However, some people simply care more about having their name at the top of the owners list than paying 10-20% more for their shares than they should. PSA registry ring a bell? =)

You have pointed out the Gabby Street Broadleaf as an example, but I think most of our other cards outside of the broadleafs are very close to fairly valued. If you look at the Ted Williams 1941 Play Ball for example, check out the graph of the price history and look at the closed auctions for this card for the last year. Each and every closed auction affected the price of our shares. This card (PSA 8) has sold for under $4000 and $8000+ in the last year and our marketplace adjusts accordingly. Remember that not all PSA 8s are created equal, so it is up to each person to determine the value of "our PSA 8" verses each of the ones that sold and figure out if they should buy/sell the shares.

Like anything else, we have guys who are only in it to collect the shares, we have guys who only care about making money, and most of our users are somewhere in the middle. We're finding a niche and building a nice collection together.

I truly believe we are an entertainment company. We make money because we provide people something that they enjoy doing online. Yes, it involves money and sports cards... but honestly, people use CardTarget rather than buying the cards themselves because they enjoy the ONLINE community aspect of it.

I could get into a whole thesis on the development of eTopps and why people enjoyed it, but that's for another post. =)

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I do have a few questions that I am sure I could find on the website but I will ask them here if you don't mind.

How many active members do you have?

Does a majority of them live in the the same region?

What is the average flat cost or % pre trade?

Also a suggestion if you don't mind. (I don't mean to steal Scott's thunder here as this was one of his points)
I understand the idea of creating a group of friends who want to build a collection together and a top 200 card one at that sounds like fun but like Scott said maybe base it on true market values of regularly traded vintage cards like the high grade Topps cards you guys already have and not focus on the hard to gage rare seldom traded cards. I think these would be a lot easier to give a market price and better liquid asset to your customers even with the 5-6% overhead built in god forbid the day the group wants to upgrade or even sellout. I think it would be more beneficial to the share holder in the long and short haul. I know I do not understand the mindset of the group of people involved in this venture but these are just my thoughts.

Thanks for being very forthcoming in this matter. It truly is refreshing to see.

Trevor

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Posted By: Mike Masinick

Our website does many other things besides just this marketplace, so our member numbers aren't public knowledge. However, there are over 400 accounts who own at least one "partial share". 95%+ of our business is still eTopps cards. We did over $1.5 Million Dollars in eTopps transactions in 2006.

Users are all over the country and even all over the world.

The transaction fees start at 6% for the standard user (which includes any CC fee that we pay to paypal or the credit card companies). These can be "bought down" by subscribing to one of our advanced services which provides many other tools (mostly for eTopps users) for collection tracking, eBay sniping, and other services. The transaction fees can be as low as 4%.

Now a serious question for you based on your suggestion... why should we concentrate on the cards where the value is known and not purchase cards where the value won't be fully known until the card leaves our marketplace? Isn't that part of the fun? Each person values cards differently, and I think part of the enjoyment of collecting is trying to figure out what your cards are worth. I think any of us can see that our users tend to overvalue cards that are super rare and likely the only existant copy. But isn't that part of the fun of buying the card? Knowing that it's likely the only one around or at least very rare? Is that worth a premium to own part of such a card (even knowing that if it was sold today it would probably sell for 80% or less of the current market value)? The financial/investory guy says no... clearly not. But what does the collector part of you say?

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Posted By: leon

I got no problem doing this here but it would(have)been better on the main forum. Mike has been a very good recipient of the strong questions, all done in a professional manner!! Why can't we get that on the main board? I would say as long as it's not a "house of cards" and someone gets scammed at the end, then more power to them. Mike knows it's not for 99% of our guys but who cares? Personally, I too, would rather own the whole card. It takes all kinds though. Ask the guys that collect plastic, they love that shine . (low blow).....good luck in your venture, Mike, and thanks for playing nicely folks....

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Posted By: Jim Dale

This was an interesting discussion and I didn't mean to start that. I know Mike and company wouldn't have posted here and I thought it would be ok too in this a buy \ sell forum. Mike asked that I not do that so I won't in the future.

I would say this to those around here who would not partake in this kind of collecting. Had Mike not started this project and offered these shares I would have never looked twice at a vintage card, particularly a T206 or one of my new favorites - 1941 play ball cards. It introduced me to a new kind of collecting, a new group of cards and since etopps went a direction I no longer cared for it was ideal to find something new (in this case really old).

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Leon,
Thanks for letting this go and I think this is in the right location because it has to deal with the buying and selling of cards.

Mike,
Thanks for the overview of your fees and the people involved in your site. I truly didn't know the eTopps card market was that large. You learn something new everyday.

The question you asked is an easy one for me to answer:
The only way I view this hobby today is from the collector side of it so yes I would want the rare obscure and hard to find item hands down.

I am a dealer and have been for almost 24 years. I do understand the profit side of this hobby as well. That is how I have built my private collection over the years by buying collections keeping the cards I want and selling the others to keep my personal collection costs low. I have been fortunate to have a day job all years as well. My point to all that rambling is I do understand speculation on buying undervalued or rare cards but for me it was to get them before others found out they where tough and that would save me the cost to re-purchase them in the future if they came to market.

The reason I said to go for more of the known card issues is because if they are in it for the money aspect of it the card market has proven that main stream cards issues ie T206's (Common issues) Goudeys, Delongs, Playballs ect.. have always had a steady climb and have never fallen in price over the long haul. Where rare cards such as 1-5 know copies such as rare 19th-20th Century types or tough T206's backs like the UZIT (I know there was more than 1-5 known) backs have shown market swings because of a small to large "find". Plus ounce the top five guys already have a copy of the super rare cards where does the price of the 6th one go? So in the long run when this vintage card fad dies down (Man I hope soon ) I think the rare cards when they surface will have the biggest price drop because quit frankly the have the longest way the fall.

Man I am full of hot air tonight sorry guys a few glasses of wine and I just type without reading.

I know I am really going on here so on with the questions:

So is this community in it, for the most part, for the cards or the money aspect?

Do you have a place they can meet to view the collection they are a part of at a give time? If so when and where is that held?

Well thanks for the great back and forth so far.
Trevor

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Jim,

I think this is a great discussion and looks into what MIGHT (a big might) become a larger aspect of this hobby. I remember listening to all the dealers saying this card grading thing will never last or ebay is such a joke shows will live forever. I was one of those people. I do not like the idea personally of this kind of collecting but that is just me. Doesn't mean it is right or wrong but it a aspect of this hobby and I want to know about it. I am glad to hear it is what brought you to the great world of vintage baseball card collecting.

Trevor

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Posted By: Eric Everett

Just wanted to chime in here quickly as I was drawn to this forum through cardtarget.com. I've been a long time collector (started in the mid 80's like so many others). Until cardtarget my money has gone to cards from no earlier than 1982...but since my association with that site I've begun pursuing a 1956 Topps set and am now delving deeply into the mystery of T206. Mike is a standup guy from all I've observed and his site is run EXTREMELY well. We all have fun over there, its a great community.

-Eric