Gun ownership poll

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

First of all, it isn't a surprise search, like randomly pulling cars over on a country road and searching through them. It is a well known, publicized procedure. So, suppose it was constructed differently...

I believe you agreed it's okay for schools to have dress codes. Part of that might include how long a girl's skirt must be, at minimum. Schools can confirm compliance, either by measuring, or if the girl, while kneeling, has her skirt touch the floor. So, there can be dress codes, and there can be compliance verification.

I don't think surprise is actually relevant to this. The 4th prohibits search without reasonable cause that the person being searched is guilty of a crime necessitating that search. Whether they are warned ahead of time isn't relevant to the 4th - it's not in accord either way. Just like the state saying "you have a week to turn in all your guns" wouldn't be in accord with the 2nd, notice of an impending infringement does not justify the infringement or make it legal.

I am, personally, against dress codes in schools for liberal reasons - I almost always come down in favor of the right of an individual to live life their way over a right of the state and its institutions to tell them what to do, wear, look, say, think, or behave. I think dress codes are not a constitutional issue though, and are left to the people under the 10th. I would say a school can enforce a legally valid rule it has set, to a reasonable degree. There is nothing prohibiting them from measuring a girls skirt, though as a tax payer I would question why this is what my tax dollars are paying them to do, and if I was a parent and it was my daughter, I'd have some questions for the teacher checking out skirt lengths.

Originally Posted by Mark17

Let's say a public school institutes a dress code that includes no metal objects as part of it. As in the skirt example, the school simply verifies compliance by electronically scanning for metal objects. If a gun or knife is found, it violates the dress code policy. If a knife, it must be removed from the premises (much as the girl in the above example must change into a more appropriate outfit.) If a gun is found, it too must be removed of course, and will (no pun intended) trigger further action.

I think there are some different considerations here. In the gun example, the school is being used as a trap for law enforcement to conduct mass warrantless searches to arrest people, without any reasonable cause or evidence that any person they are searching is actually guilty of anything.

It's more complicated if the school is searching for non-legal reasons; that is the school is operating as an arm of the state but not of the law. In this example though, it seems to be a veil to permit them to actually search for contraband, and turn over to the state's law enforcement arm students violating, again with no actual cause or evidence that that student was guilty. I think this violates a 4th, putting up a smokescreen doesn't change what is actually being done.

As a lover of terrible puns - well done.

Originally Posted by Mark17

Practical application would mean you'd want an armed guard or two near the detector to be instantly on site in case of a breach, so a killer couldn't simply run through as the detector vainly beeped.

I think this just shifts the scene, if anything.

The assailant has the tactical advantage - only they know what is about to ensue. An armed guard or cop sitting there running the machine poses little threat. They just shoot them first and go through, or go through a window, or shoot up the school entrance at drop off. I don't think it changes much, in these very rare mass incidents where a shooter with intent to survive comes in solely to deal as much damage as possible.

I do think it would probably reduce gang violence in troubled schools where this is a problem - where students bringing knives and guns are doing so with a very different mindset.

An armed guard would need to be around, but not just the clear first target to start the massacre. Otherwise, they don't really do much.

Originally Posted by Mark17

Absolutely. It's almost humorous watching politicians defend their own elaborate security details and procedures, while saying it wouldn't work for children at school.

The largest arms dealer in the world, surrounded by his tax-paid and well-armed shooters, telling us we don't need guns and we don't need armed protection either, rings a bit hollow. If I had 2 dozen loyal and armed men following me everywhere, I'd be willing to give up my gun too. Easy for them to say. If armed guards don't work, they can give up their own teams. If armed guards do work, then try it.