Roy hallady r.i.p

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fred

Wow, the Doc passes on and people are going to bring up who's a better pitcher.... how does that happen?

If I were a HOF voter he'd have my vote, not because he is gone but because he was a great pitcher. Not really sure how that is relevant to this thread. He's gone, so very sad.

I would put andy pettite above him for HOF.....Roy got a few more awards..but the win total and playoff win total and success gives Andy the edge...

I also wish they had a Hall of Fame within the Hall of Fame....like first ballot guys etc..

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would put andy pettite above him for HOF.....Roy got a few more awards..but the win total and playoff win total and success gives Andy the edge...

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

[darwinbulldog]

I already analyzed my data a long time ago, so Halladay's passing doesn't change anything in the rankings, but of the guys who pitched in my lifetime here's where I have them:

1) Roger Clemens
2) Tom Seaver
3) Randy Johnson
4) Greg Maddux
5) Pedro Martinez
6) Bert Blyleven
7) Phil Niekro
8) Mike Mussina
9) Curt Schilling
10) Clayton Kershaw (if he retires today; otherwise he probably ends up about #3)
11) Steve Carlton
12) Fergie Jenkins
13) Gaylord Perry
14) Roy Halladay
15) Tom Glavine
16) Kevin Brown
17) Rick Reuschel
18) Jim Palmer
19) Nolan Ryan
20) Luis Tiant
21) Cole Hamels
22) Dave Stieb
23) Felix Hernandez
24) Andy Pettite

[Orioles1954]

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

Funny, that's exactly where I got my data.

[Orioles1954]

Always a tragedy to lose someone so young. A true throwback.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

That was one of the most surprising things I found, but the algorithm works too well for me to throw it out in favor of my intuition. The important thing to remember is this analogy.

K:Nolan Ryan::BB: ___________

The answer is Nolan Ryan.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

[1952boyntoncollector]

...duplicate...imagine a witty comment..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

[Snapolit1]

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

[Shoeless Moe]

What an idiot.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

My dad, who was a hot air balloon pilot for about a decade and a half and got out of that hobby due to the dangers and him having a family (all similar to Roy; a wife and two kids), said the same thing.

Apparently Roy enjoyed flying real close to the water, as he felt like it was a war plane at that point (WWII water strafes or something...).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

His baseball contract probably did not allow him to fly.

However we still dont know for sure anything. Im sure the airplane maker will use the info to blame pilot error and to avoid any blame to their aircraft.

The too fast to furious actor that died had a claim through his estate for product defect to the car that was crashed..

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

[darwinbulldog]

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

[packs]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

I don't believe that at all. I don't see how someone could say Mariano Rivera's performance in the playoffs isn't short of incredible. You have to perform in the moment and Andy was at the top of the mountain.

[Orioles1954]

If Halladay gets in then Mussina, Pettitte, Gooden and Morris HAVE to be elected. I know everyone is sad by Halladay's passing, but let's not inflate his career based on sympathy alone. Of the 10 most similar players on Baseball Reference, exactly ONE (Vance) is in Cooperstown. Is Zack Grienke a Hall of Famer? That's his closest comp.