Roy hallady r.i.p

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

[darwinbulldog]

I already analyzed my data a long time ago, so Halladay's passing doesn't change anything in the rankings, but of the guys who pitched in my lifetime here's where I have them:

1) Roger Clemens
2) Tom Seaver
3) Randy Johnson
4) Greg Maddux
5) Pedro Martinez
6) Bert Blyleven
7) Phil Niekro
8) Mike Mussina
9) Curt Schilling
10) Clayton Kershaw (if he retires today; otherwise he probably ends up about #3)
11) Steve Carlton
12) Fergie Jenkins
13) Gaylord Perry
14) Roy Halladay
15) Tom Glavine
16) Kevin Brown
17) Rick Reuschel
18) Jim Palmer
19) Nolan Ryan
20) Luis Tiant
21) Cole Hamels
22) Dave Stieb
23) Felix Hernandez
24) Andy Pettite

[Orioles1954]

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

Funny, that's exactly where I got my data.

[Orioles1954]

Always a tragedy to lose someone so young. A true throwback.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I just crunched my numbers from Baseball Reference and I conclude that Bob Forsch is the greatest pitcher of all-time.

Makes sense. I get Walter Johnson.

[timn1]

Halladay W/L +98 (Playing for slightly above average teams over his career) -

do you know how hard it is to do that? Seaver was at +106 with a hundred more wins and a hundred more losses. Palmer at +116 with mostly great teams.


Comparisons w recent HOFers:
Blyleven +37
Smoltz +58
Glavine +102
Pedro +119
Maddux +128
The Big Unit +137

Ryan +32 - to me that is all you need to know in order to rank Ryan.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

That was one of the most surprising things I found, but the algorithm works too well for me to throw it out in favor of my intuition. The important thing to remember is this analogy.

K:Nolan Ryan::BB: ___________

The answer is Nolan Ryan.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

[1952boyntoncollector]

...duplicate...imagine a witty comment..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

[Snapolit1]

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

[Shoeless Moe]

What an idiot.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What an idiot.

If the video is accurate and unaltered then first ballot. Now his wife and children have to suffer for his arrogance.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

If the video is accurate and unaltered then first ballot. Now his wife and children have to suffer for his arrogance.

Arrogance? Come on. How many times have you gone faster than you should in your car? People who enjoy their hobbies will push their hobbies to extremes. His hobby was flying a plane, other people drive fast cars, others skydive.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

My dad, who was a hot air balloon pilot for about a decade and a half and got out of that hobby due to the dangers and him having a family (all similar to Roy; a wife and two kids), said the same thing.

Apparently Roy enjoyed flying real close to the water, as he felt like it was a war plane at that point (WWII water strafes or something...).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

His baseball contract probably did not allow him to fly.

However we still dont know for sure anything. Im sure the airplane maker will use the info to blame pilot error and to avoid any blame to their aircraft.

The too fast to furious actor that died had a claim through his estate for product defect to the car that was crashed..

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

[darwinbulldog]

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

Lol. Nice typo on my part. Andy Pettitte was a very smart guy I hear!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

[ALR-bishop]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...-20171109.html

[darwinbulldog]

Well, that's talk radio for you.

[timn1]

.

[timn1]

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by timn1

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

Agree with most of this but not with Pettitte being an hofer.

The argument about 300 wins is also laughable because Pettitte doesn't have 300 or even 270. Also Pettitte has a career 3.83 era I believe. How many hofers have an era that high.

I'll wait.....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by timn1

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

It is what it is. You cant assume Roy would of done well in the postseason, we dont know. .the only data we have is Petitte DID well. Lots of guys dont get opportunities but they are't held in higher regard than people than did get opportunities and came through..

You dont get into the HOF for pitching no hitters


As far as talking about Roy's stats after the recent news. i think its pretty normal to discuss careers of people and where they stand against other peoples careers especially in the entertainment and sports. This is exactly when these discussions occur, after recent news.