|
#451
|
|||
|
|||
/
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 Last edited by howard38; 09-11-2020 at 07:17 PM. |
#452
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
BR has his home/road ERA splits as 0.85 vs 2.93 so I am sticking with that. Just about every advanced metric has Marichal ahead. RA9 2.38 vs 2.41. RAopp 3.98 vs 3.99. RA9def -0.02 vs 0.30 (Koufax had a much better defense behind him that year), PPFg 102.5 vs 93 (Here is that dreaded park factor. Koufax benefitted greatly, Marichal was hurt by his), RA9avg 4.17 vs 3.49 (What an average pitcher would do against these opponents, in these parks, with these defenses...massive massive stat), RAA 58 vs 40, WAA 7.4 vs 4.9, RAR 86 vs 72, waaWL% .690 vs .613. Marichal was better. I understand the writers wouldn't have known this back in the day. Most don't know it now. But it's simply true. Koufax had an obscene park factor in 1965 coupled with a well above average performing defense that year. Marichal had a park detriment that year and a very slightly below average performing defense behind him. Edit: I see you meant Chance splits not Koufax. My bad. The fact that Chance played in Koufax home ballpark, however, does help to prove my point though. Thanks for that. Last edited by btcarfagno; 07-24-2020 at 06:57 AM. |
#453
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Last edited by btcarfagno; 07-24-2020 at 06:57 AM. |
#454
|
|||
|
|||
Billy Wagner..
|
#455
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#456
|
||||
|
||||
2nd among all pitchers for ERA in the live ball era with at least 900 IP (behind Mariano Rivera - 2.21 & 2.31). 14 out of his 15 seasons, he had an ERA under 3.00. He had an incredible career.
|
#457
|
||||
|
||||
I'd agree that Lefty Grove is probably the best of all time but I can't believe that Whitey Ford has hardly had a mention.
- Ten-time MLB All-Star - 6 World Series titles - Cy Young Award and the World Series MVP in 1961 He was the number 1 pitcher for the Yankees for years in a team filled with stars. He was absolutely a pitcher you'd want in a high-pressure game. I'd certainly have Whitey Ford way above Randy Johnson in my rankings and tied with Sandy Koufax My top 5 Lefties list is: 1. Lefty Grove 2. Sandy Koufax/Whitey Ford 3. Warren Spahn 4. Steve Carlton |
#458
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
It has been noted that Drysdale and Podres' pitching splits show that they enjoyed better home E.R.A.'s. However, neither pitcher's E.R.A. were consistently as low as Koufax's. Drysdale posted great home E.R.A.'s, and his amazing run of six shutouts in 1968, four of which were at home, really lowered his home E.R.A. that year. But with the exception of that year, his home E.R.A.'s were all in the 2.00's. Not too shabby, but not challenging what Koufax's were. Podres, while also posting better E.R.A.'s at home in 1962 and 1963, his 1963 E.R.A. split was 3.49/3.60 (home/away). The numbers show that Koufax was one hell of a pitcher, as no Dodger pitcher achieved what he did at Chavez Ravine. You have to be great to pitch as well as he did at Chavez. No other Dodger was posting 0.85. Dean Chance had his great year there in 1964, for sure. Chance's E.R.A.'s at Chavez were always better than on the road. His home E.R.A. pitching split in 1962 was 2.76/3.22. 1963 was 2.96/3.45. And 1965 again, and here it really is significant, his home E.R.A. was 2.33/4/15. Chavez factor duly acknowledged. The Angels move out of Chavez for 1966, and for the first time, his away E.R.A. is higher. So Chavez is a factor. But I argue that Koufax's numbers show that he was great even if there is that factor. No one consistently posted stronger E.R.A.'s at Chavez than Koufax. His strikeout totals also speak to his dominance. And the idea that Koufax was less than stellar on the road, takes a significant hit when you go out with a 1.96 away E.R.A. Koufax was a great pitcher in Chavez Ravine, but not because of Chavez Ravine. Last edited by jgannon; 07-25-2020 at 08:03 AM. |
#459
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
And also nobody is arguing about Koufax vs Drysdale or Podres and that isn't the standard of this thread anyway. This is about best ever. All I am saying is that Koufax was a great pitcher, likely a Hall of Famer simply for his road performance, but that he was GREATLY helped by his home park. Those years you speak of, that legendary five year performance, was a perfect storm of immense talent meeting a way to harness and control said talent coupled with the opening of one of the best pitchers parks in the history of baseball. All three were the reason for those unbelievable seasons but only the first two are ever mentioned. Last edited by btcarfagno; 07-25-2020 at 08:15 AM. |
#460
|
|||
|
|||
Ya know, Tom, I get what you are saying in regard to Sandy Koufax being greatly helped by his home stadium. However, the way you're stressing the issue, you would think Walter O'Malley designed his beautiful ball field with Don and Sandy in mind. Following your line of belief, ANY opposing pitcher would have been greatly helped by pitching in Chavez Ravine. How much do we throw away players' careers then?
Guys have whined that Roger Maris would not have broken Babe Ruth's record if Mickey Mantle was not looming in the on-deck circle. For that matter, Yankee Stadium WAS designed to benefit Babe Ruth. So, do we throw out Babe Ruth too? Ernie Banks had the benefit of batting in the friendly confines of Wrigley Field. So, do we throw him out of the HOF because he had it too easy? All those spitball pitchers that relied on their humid ball when it was perfectly legal----do we throw them out of the HOF because they should not have done such dastardly pitching. The nerve of them!!!!! You guys can isolate all the baseball dope isotope you want, ad nauseam. I fully realize the OP insisted he believes Sandy Koufax was the greatest left-handed pitcher of all time. Well, I seem to remember the eloquent words of the late Vin Skully as he reminesced about Mr. Koufax in Ken Burns history of baseball. Vin convinced me; Koufax was the greatest lefty, period. Maybe he only had six seasons of greatness, but that was enough for Skully, and that's enough for me. --- Brian Powell P.S. I well remember upon the announcement in the spring of 1969 that Mickey Mantle was retiring, the esteemed Chicago Tribune sports editor, Dave Condon, penned a glowing tribute to Mickey, and said he believed that Mantle was the greatest Yankee of all time. It wasn't as if Mr. Condon had only seen Mick play a few times. How much he had seen the Babe play in his prime, I don't know; however, he was fully aware of what he was writing, putting Mick above the Babe. I suppose, in the end, on Net54baseball we have a hot stove league going on 365 days a year! Last edited by brian1961; 07-25-2020 at 09:52 AM. |
#461
|
|||
|
|||
Not saying anything gets "tossed out". It's all about context. Larry Walker is now a HOFer. What is the first thing you hear when that gets brought up?
"Yeah but....". And it's true. Context matters. What I am asking is...where's the "yeah but" for Koufax? Statistically speaking, his home/road splits over that five year period might be even more extreme than those of Walker. But there never is a "Yeah but" with him. And there should be. Great talent. Unbelievable pitcher for five years. Obvious HOFer. Strikeout numbers that make your head spin. Yeah but... |
#462
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
As far as the Kirby Puckett allusion, we don't need to know "what if" with Koufax. Yes, it would have been great if he had been able to compete longer. But he established himself as a Hall-of-Famer in the time he played. Given how much better he was at home than his Dodger contemporaries at the time, doubling Koufax's road numbers is unnecessary to justify his induction into the Hall. |
#463
|
|||
|
|||
I'll just add to all my other statements on this thread, that while the topic is "Who Was The Greatest Lefty?", during the discussion, I felt Koufax's greatness was being made into a caricature, which is to do this legendary pitcher a disservice.
|
#464
|
|||
|
|||
It's ok, Tom. Let's face it, bro, if you put each HOFer under the hot lamp of scrutiny, the far majority of them would have a context that shadows their career.
I remember being so furious when the powers that be elected Chicago Cub great Ron Santo to the Hall of Fame about a year after the poor man died. Ron had so wanted to be elected while he was still alive to enjoy it. I penned a strong piece about the matter, as well as my rich memories of Ron, that Sports Collectors Digest ran. The crux of my article was that Ron Santo should have been a first ballot unanimous Hall of Famer due to the fact he played his entire career with Type I blood sugar diabetes. Before I got to see a photo of Santo's HOF plaque, I wrote that his plaque should say loud and clear he played at the all-star level even though he was afflicted with diabetes that required his constant attention and care. Months after I wrote my Santo article, I saw his plaque. They did him right in expressing his "context" in the first sentence. Well done. "YEAH, BUT" ya should've elected Ron Santo when he was alive, stupid! Happy collecting, fellas. Try to keep cool in these dog days of summer. --- Brian Powell |
#465
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
He was a great pitcher over those five years regardless of where he pitched. But he is immortal because of the combination of that talent and his home stadium. His home/road splits over that five year period are obscene. They would make Larry Walker blush. And for the millionth time is likely a Hall of Famer even with taking his home park away from his numbers. He was a great pitcher. Yeah but... |
#466
|
|||
|
|||
I cannot fathom why the Koufax side is still arguing against strawmans they have made up instead of what has directly and explicitly been argued over and over again. Nobody has said any of Koufax’s teammates were better, or that he is not a HOFer. Not even 1 post has alleged any of this. He is simply not the best lefty all time by any reasonable measure, and his numbers are heavily inflated by time and place in a way few others have been. It is exceptionally difficult to find pitchers who have such drastic road/home gaps. The stars aligned for Koufax, widening the strike zone, expansion creating terrible teams he (and his contemporaries) beat up on, pitching in the most pitcher friendly park in the most pitcher friendly context in the last century of baseball. He still had to deliver, and did so. He had 4 great years that’s not a single person herein denies. There is a difference between not being the best ever and a total bum, as has been pointed out numerous times. This is growing into complete absurdity with increasingly ridiculous strawmans that have absolutely nothing to do with the question of the thread or what those who don’t think 4 years of Koufax triumphs guys with equal peaks and double the longevity have actually said.
|
#467
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#468
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Whitey was very good but he wasn't even a first ballot HOFer, 2nd greatest lefty of all time? No way. |
#469
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Tony Biviano |
#470
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I suppose it depends on the criteria you use. Strikeouts or absolute wins are great stats but they I'd argue that wins % is the better stat here. At .690 Ford has the best winning percentage of any lefty in history. I'd argue that winning games is THE most important stat. Ford's stats would have been even better but Casey Stengel used to save Ford for big games. So Ford didn't get as many games in the rotation. So not only did Ford not get as many opportunities, when he did pitch he was pitching against the toughest opposition. That makes his win percentage even more remarkable. Johnson might have more strikeouts but he still allowed runs. That doesn't do the team a lot of good. Whitey Ford would let batters get on first on second but not to home plate. Ford averaged 2.22 hits per game vs Johnson's 2.76 Ford's career ERA of 2.75 is way better than Johnson's 3.29 In a 16 year major league career, Ford posted an ERA under 3.00 in 11 of those seasons. Ford's career 2.75 ERA is the 2nd lowest of starting pitchers in the live-ball era. Ford was consistent throughout his career. Ford had a 1.64 ERA in 1967 (his final season). While Johnson posted a 4.32 ERA in his last 5 seasons. Johnson's. |
#471
|
|||
|
|||
/
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 Last edited by howard38; 09-11-2020 at 07:18 PM. |
#472
|
|||
|
|||
yes
What G1911 said.... +++
Mr Koufax was a great, dominant, Hall of Fame caliber pitcher. He falls just a tad bit short of the Lefty ever. I saw Koufax pitch... and Spahn and R Johnson and A Pettitte and S Carlton... I still think Lefty Grove was the best. Whitey Ford has been mentioned. My understanding (based on what I think I've read, heard and maybe dreamed) was that the Yankee management didn't want him winning 20+ games a season (he only did twice) was because management didn't want his wins thrown out at them as a reason to justify a salary increase. A biproduct was that Jim Turner and Casey Stengel wanted him rested for important games. I think Mr. Ford was a great pitcher, but would you really to pick him to win a game for you if you had Grove, Koufax, Spahn, ro R Johnson rested and ready on the bench? |
#473
|
||||
|
||||
If its true, he only received 29 more votes in 1974 to put him over the top. He barely got in at 77.8%
|
#474
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Tony Biviano |
#475
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
RJ blows Whitey off the map. Go back to your tea and crumpets! |
#476
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Whether I've been corrupted by tea and crumpets or simply suffered long term damage from too many fully loaded hot dogs and pretzels at Yankee Stadium - I can't say. Ford, Koufax and Spahn were just before my time but I was well schooled by my father and uncles. I really love Sandy Koufax but I have to admit that I have a soft spot for Whitey. I think he's hugely under-rated (clearly not everyone agrees). FrankWakefield, I've heard similar stories about Whitey. Based on recordings of old games that I've watched, stats and interviews - my dream team lefty pitching rota would start with Grove, Koufax Ford, Spahn and Carlton long before I'd go to Johnson. |
#477
|
|||
|
|||
I don't think Whitey is the greatest, or the second greatest, but he deserves more consideration than he usually gets.
I think his .690 winning percentage is a poor argument, because it is largely a reflection that he played on a team that was, by several miles, the best in the league for most of his career. However, Ford's 2.75 ERA, a 133 ERA+ over 3,100 innings is quite impressive and has nothing to do with his team. In fact, if the stories are true that Stengel really did tend to save Ford to face the better teams in the league (I haven't done an in depth check of the game logs), his ERA is hurt by this and still exceptional. 133 ERA+ is 29th all time, and many of those ahead are relief pitchers that I would argue should be considered in a separate category. Even in his waning years, his ERA is fantastic. He posts a 3.24 in his last full season, his poorest showing as this looks excellent but was only 5% better than the league that year, and then his last 2 partial seasons he posts 135 and 192 ERA+'s. His peak years are great, though his famous 1961 is actually one of his worst seasons, 25-4 is amazing but his percentages are not. Again, pitching for a team that annihilated the league with ease makes his record highly misleading. 3,170 innings is not very many in the context of all-time rankings and hurts him greatly, I think. At his best, he is equal to Spahn and his averages are a good deal better in many ways, but Spahn must rank over him for pitching 2,000 more innings and doing so very effectively. Johnson should rank better, Plank is probably ahead on innings. Grove and Hubbell are ahead, I think. I'm not sure I'd take Carlton over Ford with Carlton's inconsistency and Ford's clocklike consistency. I have a very difficult time seeing why he barely squeaked into the Hall. He is not the best ever, but he has always appeared as an obvious hall of famer to me. Easy top 10 lefty, I think. |
#478
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
ERA+: Johnson - 135 Ford - 133 I don't much care about winning % since it's a team stat and Ford pitched for loaded teams. I mean, his winning % went down from 65-67... The "Casey held him back for big games" also doesn't hold much water to me. If anything, that's a negative against Ford. That's Stengel saying "yeah, this guy isn't durable enough to pitch regularly." The "he was saving Ford" argument also loses weight when you realize that Ford had multiple relief appearances almost every season until Houk came along. Johnson pitched 1000 more innings than Ford, while simultaneously maintaining a higher ERA+. He led his league in ERA+ 6 times, Ford just once. Johnson also won 4 ERA titles to 2 for Ford. If you like WAR - I'm not exactly a fan - then Ford's BEST season would be Randy's EIGHTH best. Ford's postseason heroics are often cited but he had an ERA over 4.00 in over half (6 of 11) his postseasons. Randy was over 4.00 in 5 of his 11. Randy also had a lower FIP (3.19) than Ford (3.26), while leading the league 6 times to Ford's 1. I honestly don't see much of a case for Ford over Johnson. Randy had a higher peak, pitched 1000 innings more, dominated more, and had a higher ERA+. Last edited by Tabe; 07-25-2020 at 05:02 PM. |
#479
|
|||
|
|||
"If anything, that's a negative against Ford. That's Stengel saying "yeah, this guy isn't durable enough to pitch regularly."
This is a reach. Ford proved his durability as soon as the Yankees let Stengel go. In Ford's first & third seasons w/o Stengel as his manager he led the league in IP & over his last five seasons he led in total IP.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 |
#480
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlcpDVlsJjg 40 years old.....97 mph.....Perfect! Tally Ho! |
#481
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#482
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#483
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I mean, why play Ford against Kansas City when Bob Turley could do the job against the worst team in baseball at the time |
#484
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
He DID start inordinately against the White Sox, but there's not much else in the individual team matchups to support this. He pitched 1,707 innings against teams greater than .500, 1,463 against teams under. The discrepancy actually mostly comes from the 60's, after Stengel had been fired. He did pitch better against successful teams than poor ones, 2.68 against winnings clubs, 2.83 against. The specific claim, that Stengel's saved Ford to face the good teams, checks out as generally false (I would be shocked if this did not occasionally happen, as it does with many pitchers), BUT this does reflect well on Ford. He did pitch a bit more against good teams than bad, and, unusually, he performed better against winning teams over his career than bad ones. |
#485
|
||||
|
||||
Well, in 1958, for example, Ford had 5 starts against KC out of only 29 all year. In 1959, he had 4 starts out of 29. In other words, exactly the number you'd expect him to have when facing 7 different opponents all season. Other years, he had less. A review of his career starts against various opponents shows the quantity to be pretty bunched together other than the White Sox (his most-frequent opponent).
Last edited by Tabe; 07-25-2020 at 07:34 PM. |
#486
|
|||
|
|||
I'm sure Stengel was trying his best to win but that doesn't mean he was always right.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 |
#487
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#488
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The simplest argument comes down to do you want to win or not. Ask Ty Cobb or Ted Williams (0 Championships each) Ask Willie Mays or Hank Aaron (1 Championship each). Ask any fan of a team that has 0 or 1 championship in their lifetime. Do you want a pitcher who has a 5 year peak where you win 2 World Championships because of Koufax, win a 3rd pennant but lose the World Series when your offense has the worst World Series in history hitting .142 with 2 runs scored and Koufax would have pitched a shutout except for your poor defense and you finish tied for 1st in a 4th season but lose out on another championship because Koufax gets hurt while leading the league in wins, ERA, strikeouts, FIP and WHIP? If you value winning at all, Koufax is the only answer. You can have any other lefty and be mediocre because no one has had a 5 year peak like Koufax. |
#489
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#490
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
There was someone above who considered Clemens to be the antichrist because he cheated. Well, obviously some of the old-timers did too. Most of it was just accepted back then (and ignored by anyone looking back today.) That's why it's never made any sense to just forget what guys like Ford did when it comes to the subject, and focus only on Clemens, Bonds, etc. As far as HOF credentials or otherwise Last edited by cardsagain74; 07-26-2020 at 04:58 PM. |
#491
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#492
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Even if you go by ERA+, Marichal is only ahead 9%.Does that really out weigh a better WHIP and FIP? 40 more innings pitched? And the real deciding factor, Koufax setting a MLB record with 382 strike outs? This is my problem with bWAR, it doesn’t add up. Even if you mainly rely on ERA+, the difference should be .5 or less. There has to be some value to pitching more innings and allowing fewer base runners. I think today, even with advanced metrics, Koufax still wins. Remember he led Marichal by 3.2 in fWAR, which is just as ridiculous as bWAR in 1965. |
#493
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#494
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If we are pretending a players best is who they are and ignoring everything else and their poor seasons or the context, by the Koufax logic Ferdie Schupp is still the best lefty all time regular-season. |
#495
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Bumgarner is unhittable in the World Series. In five career appearances, he has a microscopic 0.25 ERA, which is the lowest of any pitcher in history with at least 25 World Series innings pitched. |
#496
|
|||
|
|||
You’d already cited Bumbarner. My point is the ridiculousness of the standards for Koufax that are not applied to anyone but him.
|
#497
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
But I certainly understand the sentiment. |
#498
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
And I want to reiterate that while yes, the 1960's favored the pitcher, this dismissing of the 1960's as being weak on hitting or a second deadball era, is unfair. It gives short shrift to the many great hitters who played back then, and doesn't take into account the more rugged and aggressive style of the game. Hitters had to face brush back pitches and the threat of being knocked down without all the protective gear of today. Calling it a second deadball era is such an inaccurate term. It reminds me of placing Mantle's record of 18 World Series home runs, down the list under the heading of "post-season home runs". The cheapness of the more modern statistics in ballparks that are smaller, with a much livelier ball, doesn't make the ball that was used in Koufax's day dead, nor the hitting weak. The modern outlook doesn't acknowledge the great hitters who had to play a truer game and face some of the greatest pitchers who ever played, under much more arduous circumstances. Guys like Koufax didn't dominate because the hitters were weak, but because the pitchers were good. |
#499
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Last edited by jgannon; 08-05-2020 at 06:41 AM. |
#500
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Obv another discussion in itself, but it's always fascinated me that this dynamic hasn't been considered a lot more in those guys' legacy. You have five of the best eight or so hitters to ever step on the diamond, and just two combined titles. It's hard for me to believe that it's ALL a function of just subpar teams at the wrong time for those guys. Common denominators there are sullen/unlikeable personalities and maybe not much team leadership by your superstar. But then, Dimaggio was a jerk who wasn't the rally the troops type, and he won like crazy. Maybe that era's Yankees was still enough regardless. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Lefty Grove = Lefty Groves... And Lefty's 1921 Tip Top Bread Card | leftygrove10 | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 12 | 10-15-2019 12:55 AM |
62 koufax ,59 mays,72 mays vg ends monday 8 est time sold ended | rjackson44 | Live Auctions - Only 2-3 open, per member, at once. | 3 | 05-22-2017 05:00 PM |
Final Poll!! Vote of the all time worst Topps produced set | almostdone | Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) | 22 | 07-28-2015 07:55 PM |
Long Time Lurker. First time poster. Crazy to gamble on this Gehrig? | wheels56 | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 17 | 05-17-2015 04:25 AM |
It's the most wonderful time of the year. Cobb/Edwards auction time! | iggyman | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 68 | 09-17-2013 12:42 AM |