Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

I cannot fathom why the Koufax side is still arguing against strawmans they have made up instead of what has directly and explicitly been argued over and over again. Nobody has said any of Koufax’s teammates were better, or that he is not a HOFer. Not even 1 post has alleged any of this. He is simply not the best lefty all time by any reasonable measure, and his numbers are heavily inflated by time and place in a way few others have been. It is exceptionally difficult to find pitchers who have such drastic road/home gaps. The stars aligned for Koufax, widening the strike zone, expansion creating terrible teams he (and his contemporaries) beat up on, pitching in the most pitcher friendly park in the most pitcher friendly context in the last century of baseball. He still had to deliver, and did so. He had 4 great years that’s not a single person herein denies. There is a difference between not being the best ever and a total bum, as has been pointed out numerous times. This is growing into complete absurdity with increasingly ridiculous strawmans that have absolutely nothing to do with the question of the thread or what those who don’t think 4 years of Koufax triumphs guys with equal peaks and double the longevity have actually said.

Not really, Clayton Kershaw has a greater home/road gap for his career.

The simplest argument comes down to do you want to win or not. Ask Ty Cobb or Ted Williams (0 Championships each) Ask Willie Mays or Hank Aaron (1 Championship each). Ask any fan of a team that has 0 or 1 championship in their lifetime. Do you want a pitcher who has a 5 year peak where you win 2 World Championships because of Koufax, win a 3rd pennant but lose the World Series when your offense has the worst World Series in history hitting .142 with 2 runs scored and Koufax would have pitched a shutout except for your poor defense and you finish tied for 1st in a 4th season but lose out on another championship because Koufax gets hurt while leading the league in wins, ERA, strikeouts, FIP and WHIP? If you value winning at all, Koufax is the only answer. You can have any other lefty and be mediocre because no one has had a 5 year peak like Koufax.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really, Clayton Kershaw has a greater home/road gap for his career.

The simplest argument comes down to do you want to win or not. Ask Ty Cobb or Ted Williams (0 Championships each) Ask Willie Mays or Hank Aaron (1 Championship each). Ask any fan of a team that has 0 or 1 championship in their lifetime. Do you want a pitcher who has a 5 year peak where you win 2 World Championships because of Koufax, win a 3rd pennant but lose the World Series when your offense has the worst World Series in history hitting .142 with 2 runs scored and Koufax would have pitched a shutout except for your poor defense and you finish tied for 1st in a 4th season but lose out on another championship because Koufax gets hurt while leading the league in wins, ERA, strikeouts, FIP and WHIP? If you value winning at all, Koufax is the only answer. You can have any other lefty and be mediocre because no one has had a 5 year peak like Koufax.

+1 big time. Early arguments about Whitey Ford are laughable, look at his line up hitting behind him! I will ask this again... For one game win or lose for the Series Title, what lefty would you take over Koufax? Anybody that says Kershaw I'm going to throw up....

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1 big time. Early arguments about Whitey Ford are laughable, look at his line up hitting behind him! I will ask this again... For one game win or lose for the Series Title, what lefty would you take over Koufax? Anybody that says Kershaw I'm going to throw up....

Bumgarner

[G1911]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1 big time. Early arguments about Whitey Ford are laughable, look at his line up hitting behind him! I will ask this again... For one game win or lose for the Series Title, what lefty would you take over Koufax? Anybody that says Kershaw I'm going to throw up....

Harry Breechen has a better post-season, 0.83 ERA. His regular season ERA+ is better than Koufax too. In a similar amount of innings.

If we are pretending a players best is who they are and ignoring everything else and their poor seasons or the context, by the Koufax logic Ferdie Schupp is still the best lefty all time regular-season.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by G1911

Harry Breechen has a better post-season, 0.83 ERA. His regular season ERA+ is better than Koufax too. In a similar amount of innings.

If we are pretending a players best is who they are and ignoring everything else and their poor seasons or the context, by the Koufax logic Ferdie Schupp is still the best lefty all time regular-season.

Bumgarner!

Bumgarner is unhittable in the World Series. In five career appearances, he has a microscopic 0.25 ERA, which is the lowest of any pitcher in history with at least 25 World Series innings pitched.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Bumgarner!

Bumgarner is unhittable in the World Series. In five career appearances, he has a microscopic 0.25 ERA, which is the lowest of any pitcher in history with at least 25 World Series innings pitched.

You’d already cited Bumbarner. My point is the ridiculousness of the standards for Koufax that are not applied to anyone but him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Harry Breechen has a better post-season, 0.83 ERA. His regular season ERA+ is better than Koufax too. In a similar amount of innings.

If we are pretending a players best is who they are and ignoring everything else and their poor seasons or the context, by the Koufax logic Ferdie Schupp is still the best lefty all time regular-season.

Nice strawman.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really, Clayton Kershaw has a greater home/road gap for his career.

The simplest argument comes down to do you want to win or not. Ask Ty Cobb or Ted Williams (0 Championships each) Ask Willie Mays or Hank Aaron (1 Championship each). Ask any fan of a team that has 0 or 1 championship in their lifetime. Do you want a pitcher who has a 5 year peak where you win 2 World Championships because of Koufax, win a 3rd pennant but lose the World Series when your offense has the worst World Series in history hitting .142 with 2 runs scored and Koufax would have pitched a shutout except for your poor defense and you finish tied for 1st in a 4th season but lose out on another championship because Koufax gets hurt while leading the league in wins, ERA, strikeouts, FIP and WHIP? If you value winning at all, Koufax is the only answer. You can have any other lefty and be mediocre because no one has had a 5 year peak like Koufax.

That's certainly a fair point, and hits close to home as a fan of a team that has sucked ass for a long long time (Pirates). What does one value more? Excellence over a longer period or outright dominance over a short period? To me it needs to come as close as possible to both criteria, which is why a Niekro at one end of the extreme or Koufax at the other would never get my vote.

But I certainly understand the sentiment.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

That's certainly a fair point, and hits close to home as a fan of a team that has sucked ass for a long long time (Pirates). What does one value more? Excellence over a longer period or outright dominance over a short period? To me it needs to come as close as possible to both criteria, which is why a Niekro at one end of the extreme or Koufax at the other would never get my vote.

But I certainly understand the sentiment.

Hey, I am old enough to remember 1971 and 1979. I am thinking about friends who are Cubs fans. Winning one was the highlight of their life. Imagine having a 5 year run like the Dodgers had with Koufax. There are a number of teams that have never won. Winning is all that matters.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

The simplest argument comes down to do you want to win or not. Ask Ty Cobb or Ted Williams (0 Championships each) Ask Willie Mays or Hank Aaron (1 Championship each)

And Barry Bonds.

Obv another discussion in itself, but it's always fascinated me that this dynamic hasn't been considered a lot more in those guys' legacy. You have five of the best eight or so hitters to ever step on the diamond, and just two combined titles.

It's hard for me to believe that it's ALL a function of just subpar teams at the wrong time for those guys.

Common denominators there are sullen/unlikeable personalities and maybe not much team leadership by your superstar. But then, Dimaggio was a jerk who wasn't the rally the troops type, and he won like crazy. Maybe that era's Yankees was still enough regardless.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really, Clayton Kershaw has a greater home/road gap for his career.

???

Kershaw has a 2.15 ERA at home, 2.78 away. That's significantly closer than Koufax for splits (Dodger Stadium home).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

???

Kershaw has a 2.15 ERA at home, 2.78 away. That's significantly closer than Koufax for splits (Dodger Stadium home).

Not for his career.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not for his career.

True. The conversation, however, was centered on his ridiculous splits during the Dodger Stadium years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

True. The conversation, however, was centered on his ridiculous splits during the Dodger Stadium years.

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

[Flintboy]

Surprises me that Lolich isn’t mentioned more often. He along with Kaline were the team leaders on the Tigers for many years. I know he isn’t in the Koufax, Carlton, Johnson, etc discussion......but I know I could make a very strong case to have him in the HOF rather then some other recently voted in players.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

This is a circular argument. A logical falacy. It's not a valid argument. Dodger Stadium has an average park factor of 95. That means that Koufax benefited 5% from pitching there. 5% is all. The reason he was so good in Dodger Stadium is because he is the best lefty of all time. Dodger Stadium's park factor is in line with other pitchers parks. The Astrodome averaged 94. Candlestick Park averaged 97. Why couldn't Marichal come within 2% of Koufax's home ERA? Or any Astros pitcher match it?

Now let's look at hitters parks. The "Launching Pad" in Atlanta had an average park factor of 105 with a high of 114. So, a hitter in Atlanta got the same bonus that a pitcher did in Dodger Stadium. The Baker Bowl was a little more extreme. From 1921-1937 it averaged 112 with a high of 116. The Rockies average park factor for their entire history...118 with a high of 128. I will let you figure out Fenway, but it is going to be close to 105, the best season was 112. I find it a little hypocritical that you mention Jim Rice. Sure he got a boost from the Green Monster being 310 feet in LF. Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

What we can do with stats. Here is some for you. Career Numbers Led League:

IP ERA Titles Shutouts IP BB K WHIP W-L PCT

Kou 2324 5 40 2 0 4 4 5

RJ 4135 4 37 2 3 9 3 4

This is what Koufax did in his short career. Johnson had close to 2000 more innings pitched. Give me Koufax in a heartbeat.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

So what you've shown is that by any measurement there is a left hander that is better than Koufax. The myth is strong my friend.

Have no hitters come back yet? Then we can anoint Ryan, Koufax, Feller, Young, and Verlander as the greatest rotation that could ever be compiled.
We'll have to push one of them out though if Homer Bailey or Mike Fiers tosses another one.