1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Exhibitman]

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

[Steve D]

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

No address Steve, must be fake.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

Clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

lol!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

lol!

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing

I respectfully disagree.

[bgar3]

Steve, that is a truly great job. Well done.

[slidekellyslide]

Here is a postcard of Herpolsheimer’s from around 1910. No address on the front or back of the card. They simply felt they didn’t need to put their address out there on advertisements.

[Steve D]

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

Now that is just silly. Everyone knows aliens have not arrived on Earth yet. My inside source says it is a family of Bigfoot operating out of Oregon. Supposedly they have put enough high end counterfeit cards into the hobby they would sink a large boat.

[Brian Van Horn]

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

Doesn’t primary source evidence contradict your claims?

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

So, despite the fact that someone found an ad from Herpolsheimer's from 1921 for the exact set of cards that have been labeled by PSA as 1921 Herpolsheimer's you still think the cards are fake because a dealer in 1999 said the cards were from the 1970s?

And that even if the dealer was somehow correct about those cards, you think that the cards discovered in 2019 and the PSA 6 Collins are also fake, even though those were not among the group of cards that the dealer said were fake?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

All due respect Brian, that ad that Steve provided, thank you Steve, to me supports authenticity, unless of course the ad is fake. And while I'm not well versed on printing techniques and it may not be difficult but how does one fake bleed through on cards? The other thing that strikes me is the same "second floor" mention in both the ad and the card backs, pretty consistent imo.
Now of course the forger of the 70's may have found this ad and chosen it as a template for his craft but I find that implausible, I don't know what a forged Herp common was worth in the 70's but I would posit the "great forgery" wasn't very profitable at the time.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

We're sorry, we can't find this page.
Still have questions? Please visit our FAQ to learn more.

[Steve D]

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

If I may trouble you for a response to my PM after my last post.

[Brian Van Horn]

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

[robertsmithnocure]

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

Adam,

I did hold some of the cards in my hands at Robert Morris in May 1999. With the marking of $1.00 on some of the cards, I still considered a purchase.