Erasing a light pencil mark, altering in a negative manner?

[barrysloate]

Dave- suppose I'm cataloguing a group of raw tobacco cards and I decide to first finish my meatball hero. To my great chagrin one of the meatballs falls splat onto my T206 green Cobb. I quickly grab a paper towel and wipe the tomato sauce off the card.

Have I just altered it? Because wiping off the sauce is equivalent to erasing a light pencil mark, in my book.

[Cardboard Junkie]

You altered the cobb by meatball. You attempted to diminish the damage by cleaning some off. When the meatball hit the card...the card was altered.....by cleaning it you tried to diminish the damage by furthur alteration, ( even though the result would probably have more eye appeal).
A card was altered when the pencil mark was placed there.
Erasing the pencil mark is trying to diminish the damage.
All alterations of cards are unacceptable to me.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

You altered the cobb by meatball. You attempted to diminish the damage by cleaning some off. When the meatball hit the card...the card was altered.....by cleaning it you tried to diminish the damage by furthur alteration, ( even though the result would probably have more eye appeal).
A card was altered when the pencil mark was placed there.
Erasing the pencil mark is trying to diminish the damage.
All alterations of cards are unacceptable to me.

David, it seems to me that what you are really saying is that all minimizations of alterations to cards are unacceptable to you. FWIW, I happen to respecfully disagree with you.
Val

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

You altered the cobb by meatball. You attempted to diminish the damage by cleaning some off. When the meatball hit the card...the card was altered.....by cleaning it you tried to diminish the damage by furthur alteration, ( even though the result would probably have more eye appeal).
A card was altered when the pencil mark was placed there.
Erasing the pencil mark is trying to diminish the damage.
All alterations of cards are unacceptable to me.

Dave, at least I know you won't be bidding on my Mack Old Put if it ever leaves my collection LOL. I appreciate your view, but respectively disagree. Wiping off dirt or anything that was not on the card originally is not altering the card. It's not changing the color, size or being deceitful in any way IMO. SGC are extremely professional, and are completely objective in their views. I respect the way they grade cards and try their best to be a reliable resource for all of us. I'm sticking with their views on this, and they happen to be mine as well.

[barrysloate]

So what you're saying Dave is it would be more ethical if I left the tomato sauce to harden onto the card's surface? If so, I hope the sauce falls on my red Cobb instead so that it might in fact blend into the background.

[jimross]

What about removing the date stamp from the recent REA Wagner? I am sure it would bump a grade or two higher.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Hi Barry....Of course not, if it was my cobb I probably would have dashed to the sink and showered that sauce off. I am saying that the original sauce was what altered the card (like the original pencil mark) diminishing that sauce is like erasing the pencil mark (probably with much less sucessful results). Come to think of it, isn't it strange that restoration in comic books and in classic cars is considered ok yet in coins and stamps it is not ok. To me altering a card is not ok. And altering one and getting it bumped up by a tpg is dispicable. (sp?) Aloha Dave.

[matty39]

I went to bed with my window open last night and forgot a few cards on the table. It was extremely dusty and windy. This morning I noticed a fine layer of dust on my cards. I took a cloth and wiped the "dirt" off the cards. Am I guilty of altering them?

[barrysloate]

I understand that any alteration bothers you, and that's okay. But a pencil erasure would not bother me.

Originally Posted by matty39

I went to bed with my window open last night and forgot a few cards on the table. It was extremely dusty and windy. This morning I noticed a fine layer of dust on my cards. I took a cloth and wiped the "dirt" off the cards. Am I guilty of altering them?

Yes you are and the cards should be destroyed!!!! I will PM you my address so I can ensure they are properly incinerated.

[Matthew H]

How can anyone compare wiping dust off a card to erasing a mark to smoothing a crease. All of those are very different to each other. I agree that erasing a mark to make a card look a little better is fine... Having an SGC grader open a slab and stand by while you erase a mark then upgrade said card is incredibly unethical (for the grader). Is that service available to anyone? I doubt it.

I purchased a 10 card submission to PSA one time in my life. The grades came back all over the place, overgraded, undergraded. They probably spent 10 seconds max grading each card. Its a completely worthless service IMO. I can see how it appeals to some people... Mainly those who have personal relationships with the graders and discuss various ways to achieve a better grade, as discussed here, WOW

Edit: I believe thisis to be unethical by SGC. I don't mind that Pete erased his card, it's his.

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

How can anyone compare wiping dust off a card to erasing a mark to smoothing a crease. All of those are very different to each other. I agree that erasing a mark to make a card look a little better is fine... Having an SGC grader open a slab and stand by while you erase a mark then upgrade said card is incredibly unethical (for the grader). Is that service available to anyone? I doubt it.

I purchased a 10 card submission to PSA one time in my life. The grades came back all over the place, overgraded, undergraded. They probably spent 10 seconds max grading each card. Its a completely worthless service IMO. I can see how it appeals to some people... Mainly those who have personal relationships with the graders and discuss various ways to achieve a better grade, as discussed here, WOW

Edit: I believe thisis to be unethical by SGC. I don't mind that Pete erased his card, it's his.

Matt, good points and they are all different situations. I know many have erased marks on cards rather easily and frequently over time. Because of the cost of the card in question, I wanted them to take it out of the holder. I asked ahead of time if erasing a mark and resubmitting it was ok, and they felt the pencil hadn't been there before, so it wasn't adding or taking anything from the card to "alter" it. But, I can see how others may feel that may not have been a normal process in having them there. I requested one of them to be there, so they witnessed me doing it and didn't think anything else would be done to the card. I'd say they'd do it for anyone if you paid the walk through price and had it graded there. It was by no means a "special" service, as I don't know any of them personally.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by pcoz

Matt, good points and they are all different situations. I know many have erased marks on cards rather easily and frequently over time. Because of the cost of the card in question, I wanted them to take it out of the holder. I asked ahead of time if erasing a mark and resubmitting it was ok, and they felt the pencil hadn't been there before, so it wasn't adding or taking anything from the card to "alter" it. But, I can see how others may feel that may not have been a normal process in having them there. I requested one of them to be there, so they witnessed me doing it and didn't think anything else would be done to the card. I'd say they'd do it for anyone if you paid the walk through price and had it graded there. It was by no means a "special" service, as I don't know any of them personally.

Well Pete, your explanation makes your situation more understandable. But, not really for SGC. I live an hour away from PSA, so if I pay more for a walk through they will grade my cards differently?

So this makes total sense now, we have to pay for this "special service"... Which is fine, although it's too bad our hobby values cards (for the most part) based on this grading system.

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Well Pete, your explanation makes your situation more understandable. But, not really for SGC. I live an hour away from PSA, so if I pay more for a walk through they will grade my cards differently?

So this makes total sense now, we have to pay for this "special service"... Which is fine, although it's too bad our hobby values cards (for the most part) based on this grading system.

Matt, I probably didn't explain SGC's policy of a walk through, which is having a card graded with same day service at their location. Since I was visiting my pop in N Jersey, I brought the card to them to get it regraded on the spot. I'm sure I could've sent it in with my explanation, and am confident they'd have handled/graded it the same way.

[Tsaiko]

All my cards were altered, because they were taken out of their respective cigarette packs. Then they got finger prints on them and the dust in the atmosphere just made them worthless. I sent a few to be graded, but they were further altered by being put in a plastic prison after being judged, not to mention fondled and molested. After my dog farted on them, they had to be burned.

Oh,

"no caveats and no other stuff collectors can dream up".

Never mind or NM (which I always thought meant Near Mint).

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Dave- suppose I'm cataloguing a group of raw tobacco cards and I decide to first finish my meatball hero. To my great chagrin one of the meatballs falls splat onto my T206 green Cobb. I quickly grab a paper towel and wipe the tomato sauce off the card.

Have I just altered it? Because wiping off the sauce is equivalent to erasing a light pencil mark, in my book.

Barry- great analogy. i'm with ya.

Dinner soon?

Actually...maybe we can turn this thread into our next NYC Dinner thread (kidding Leon).

[Davy_Kangaroo_Jones]

I own a T206 that has the first letter of the player's name written right in front of his last name at the bottom (it's so light you can barely see it unless you're looking for it). It came back a PSA 4 (mk). Without that mark it's at least a 7. It's beautiful. It's a shame really.

[dougscats]

Thanks LWMM and Matt; I'll be looking to buy one.