Toughest 1940's & 1950's Baseball Autographs

[JimStinson]

Also a few I will admit responsiblity for destroying the demand for
Chico Hernandez (1942 Cubs) Died Cuba 1986
Tommy Dela Cruz (1944 Reds) Died Cuba 1958
Tony "Mosquito" Ordenana (1943 Pirates) Died-Cuba
for buying and selling a collection that included DOZENS of autographs of each , and another all time toughie RAMON GARCIA (debut 1948) Bill C. actually did a private signing with him so .....Toughies no more

[travrosty]

Jim,

are people who want these tough, short lived major league career players, are they collecting them to try to finish a team set from a certain year, or do they just want to collect the toughest players- period, or do they want to collect every player who played? I'm trying to figure out the demand out of curiosity because it doesnt seem to translate into other sports autograph collecting as much.

[JimStinson]

In answer to your question many collectors collect ever player who ever played in the ML

[JimStinson]

Also teams 1919 Reds, 1919 White Sox, 1927 Yankees, 1955 Dodgers or ALL players that ever played for the Yankees, or Dodgers etc. Your correct it does not translate into other fields of collecting. Except maybe the entire cast of "The Wizard of OZ" or "Casablana" or "Gone with the Wind" or "The Godfather"

[JimStinson]

Also using BOXING as an example I was the guy that did over 200 private signings with boxing champions and impossible to find non-baseball autographs including the legendary (and now deceased) middleweight champ CARLOS MONZON in Argentina , JOHN TATE (when he was in prison), TREVOR BERBICK (shortly before his head was split open with a machette), OSCAR DE LA HOYA (Right after the Gold Medal in Barcelona), etc etc and the response was luke warm at best.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Also using BOXING as an example I was the guy that did over 200 private signings with boxing champions and impossible to find non-baseball autographs including the legendary (and now deceased) middleweight champ CARLOS MONZON in Argentina , JOHN TATE (when he was in prison), TREVOR BERBICK (shortly before his head was split open with a machette), OSCAR DE LA HOYA (Right after the Gold Medal in Barcelona), etc etc and the response was luke warm at best.

Exactly, i collect boxing and other than collecting all of the opponents of muhammad ali, there isnt much of demand to collect all boxers who fought joe louis, frazier etc. (Even though i collected all the championship opponents of Louis and got many of them from you.)

I think i have the only manuel ramos autograph around but he fought frazier for the title and not Muhammad Ali, so it is almost worthless even though he was mexican heavyweight champion and the only mexican national to fight for the heavyweight crown. Had he fought Muhammad Ali it would be worth a lot. Had he been a baseball player it would be a brick of gold.

I just never hear of people looking for an autograph of someone of little note other than playing in the league who played three games for the boston celtics back in 1948. but baseball has its allure I guess.

[JimStinson]

Yes you are correct , other fields of collecting trend toward specific areas of collecting, With boxing its tipically the heavyweight champs, or guys who fought Ali. Or Louis but here is the KINK , there might be only 2 or 3 guys that collect in that arena so ....even though the autograph is SUPER tough , even tougher than some of the "cup of coffee baseball players" there does not exist a "market" and market determines value ....at the MOMENT , which changes always

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Exactly, i collect boxing and other than collecting all of the opponents of muhammad ali, there isnt much of demand to collect all boxers who fought joe louis, frazier etc. (Even though i collected all the championship opponents of Louis and got many of them from you.)

I think i have the only manuel ramos autograph around but he fought frazier for the title and not Muhammad Ali, so it is almost worthless even though he was mexican heavyweight champion and the only mexican national to fight for the heavyweight crown. Had he fought Muhammad Ali it would be worth a lot. Had he been a baseball player it would be a brick of gold.

I just never hear of people looking for an autograph of someone of little note other than playing in the league who played three games for the boston celtics back in 1948. but baseball has its allure I guess.

I have read a couple different articles about collectors trying to collect all the Ali opponents. Is a Jim Robinson autograph still considered to be non-existant?

I have also read in the past about a collector trying to collect every man who ever fought for the heavyweight title, so I was familiar with how tough Ramos is. I saw a Ramos autograph on eBay a few months ago. Obviously, eBay is loaded with fakes and frauds. But Ramos seems like he would be a pretty obscure guy to fake. I don't even think it ever sold. From what I remember, the seller claimed it came from Ramos' military discharge papers. I thought that was kinda weird, beause isn't that where the one known legit Ramos autograph originated from?

I know baseball will always be king as far as autograph values go, but it always amazes me how cheap boxing autographs from the early 20th century are for everyone other than the heavyweight champions.

Who were the toughest Louis opponents to collect?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Your correct it does not translate into other fields of collecting. Except maybe the entire cast of "The Wizard of OZ" or "Casablana" or "Gone with the Wind" or "The Godfather"

In space you have collectors who collect every astronaut. Then you get into flown versus everyone who ever attained astronaut status, which is difficult, but not impossible.

if you throw cosmonauts into the mix, it becomes nearly impossible.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

In space you have collectors who collect every astronaut. Then you get into flown versus everyone who ever attained astronaut status, which is difficult, but not impossible.

if you throw cosmonauts into the mix, it becomes nearly impossible.

I'm curious Steve.
How many people in each of those categories?
Moonwalkers, Flew into space, just plain ole astronauts, and cosmonauts.
How many of them would be considered difficult?
Am I correct in thinking the Armstrong is the most expensive? Is he the most difficult to get?
I know little about the astronaut field, but, like most, was fascinated with them as a kid. One of my goals is to eventually get an Armstrong.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mr. Zipper]

Flown astronauts are a little over 350. Unflown are a few dozen.

Cosmonauts and taikonauts are a little over 150.

Like anything else, it's the 10% that are really tough for one reason or another.

Unflown guys like Ted Freeman, Charlie Basset, CC Williams and Elliott See are rare because they died early in the program. There are also a few shuttle astros you've never heard of before who sell for huge money because they died prematurely soon after they earned their wings.

Grissom, White and Chaffee (Apollo 1) are not super rare, but in very high demand. Then there is Bill anders (Apollo 8) who hates signing and is uncommon and in high demand. To make it even more fun, Anders intentionally changes how he signs (when he rarely signs) just to mess with collectors.

Armstrong is common, but demand is so high, signed cards sell for $1000. Photos $1500 and up.

Russian tradition was cosmonauts should not sign until after their flight... A superstition they all followed. So, the cosmonauts who died on their first flight are extremely rare. For example, Dobrovolsky and Patseyev who died on Soyuz 11 only exist on a handful of official documents that reside in Russian museums. A few signed items have appeared on the collector market, however many collectors have serious doubts about these items.

There are various subsets such as all 12 moonwalkers on white spacesuit photos, but there is always a catch. For instance, Jim Irwin hated his space suit portrait and almost never signed it. An Irwin WSS unpersonalized would probably sell for $10,000+.

A single item with all 12 moonwalkers would be huge. Only a handful exist. A baseball with 10 (or was it 11) of the 12 just sold at heritage for $21,000 plus.