OT: Colorado shooting

Peter_Spaeth · #1 07-23-2012, 09:04 PM

Legal systems have always struggled with the definition of insanity as a defense. Does it mean the inability to tell right from wrong? Or does it mean the inability to control one's actions? Or something else? I think for most people, including myself, it's hard to believe someone who for months carefully plans a crime is not "sane" by any definition. On the other hand, if he truly believed he was The Joker, well, I don't know.

Runscott · #2 07-23-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Legal systems have always struggled with the definition of insanity as a defense. Does it mean the inability to tell right from wrong? Or does it mean the inability to control one's actions? Or something else? I think for most people, including myself, it's hard to believe someone who for months carefully plans a crime is not "sane" by any definition. On the other hand, if he truly believed he was The Joker, well, I don't know.

I think most people struggle with the term 'insane', as well. To me, anyone who commits the premeditated murder of people he doesn't even know, must be 'insane' on some level. Tough call (or should be).

Interesting that you brought up "the inability to control one's actions". Antipsychotics can be used to bring a manic patient down to a state where they can fake sanity well enough to get through a competency evaluation so that they can testify in their own behalf. Despite this, they are still mentally ill, and once off their meds are likely to re-enter their psychotic state.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 07-23-2012, 09:19 PM

Scott, to me premeditation and planning is more consistent with being evil (knowing right from wrong but choosing to do wrong) than insane. But of course it's a case by case inquiry, in an imperfect world, where ultimately people make that judgment based on conflicting testimony of paid psychiatrists, and of course their common sense.

Matthew H · #4 07-23-2012, 09:26 PM

Thank you for the offer, Scott. I will be contacting you when I run into my next hurdle. BTW, injectable meds that are effective for a month is the latest thing, and somewhat promising to me.

Peter, IMO, schizophrenia should show up in a ct scan, otherwise, if it were up to me, the insanity plea shouldn't be allowed for people just having a bad day.

Leon, you raise a valid argument, if it turns out there is something wrong with this guy, the arms dealer should be prosecuted as well... It doesn't take a psychologist to see.

#5 07-23-2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness.

Uh, Runscott, I am a Certified Nurses Assistant. Yes, I know what thorazine is used for. Also, a punk rock fan and the song, "thorazine shuffle", has been covered by everyone from the Sex Pistols to Government Mule. My words may have been poorly chosen, my point was he seemed to be heavily medicated in court. I agree with your general premise, mental illness is often neglected or ignored by those around sometimes with tragic consequences.

Runscott · #6 07-23-2012, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pariah1107

Uh, Runscott, I am a Certified Nurses Assistant. Yes, I know what thorazine is used for. Also, a punk rock fan and the song, "thorazine shuffle", has been covered by everyone from the Sex Pistols to Government Mule. My words may have been poorly chosen, my point was he seemed to be heavily medicated in court. I agree with your general premise, mental illness is often neglected or ignored by those around sometimes with tragic consequences.

There was no way of me knowing that. I responded to your words, which is what I always try to do.

Edited to add: To me, if he was heavily medicated, this would be an indication that he was manic and had to be sedated for safety reasons. Is it true that people are given antipsychotics simply to make them look insane? I have never heard of that.

#7 07-24-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Is it true that people are given antipsychotics simply to make them look insane? I have never heard of that.

No. Typically a 72 hour mental health evaluation and civil commitment hearing are necessary to medicate someone involuntarily. He would not be given psychotropics for the sake of appearance by any responsible health professional. It would be necessary only if he was a danger to himself or others, which in this case is a statement of the obvious.

My guess is he was evaluated by mental health officials over the weekend prior to his arraignment on Monday, and it was deemed necessary to pacify him. Thorazine is a powerful, older, antipsychotic and rarely used because of its side effects, more likely he was sedated with haldol. Seeing the suspect in court he did exhibit some symptoms of psychotropics including heavy eyelids, dizziness (head bobbing), enlarged pupils, and shuffling (though that may be from the leg irons).

Runscott · #8 07-24-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Thank you for the offer, Scott. I will be contacting you when I run into my next hurdle. BTW, injectable meds that are effective for a month is the latest thing, and somewhat promising to me.

Peter, IMO, schizophrenia should show up in a ct scan, otherwise, if it were up to me, the insanity plea shouldn't be allowed for people just having a bad day.

Leon, you raise a valid argument, if it turns out there is something wrong with this guy, the arms dealer should be prosecuted as well... It doesn't take a psychologist to see.

There is a guy down in Tacoma who will do brain scans that show the damaged areas very clearly - same guy who did this for NFL players who had suffered brain trauma. I know someone who got one done for their schizophrenic son and showed it to him - that was how he got the insight to realize he had a damaged brain and needed to take meds, so it will definitely show the damage of a mental break.

I'm pretty sure this is the guy: http://www.amenclinics.com/?p=5823&o...ess&Itemid=204

vintagetoppsguy · #9 07-24-2012, 10:49 AM

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

Peter_Spaeth · #10 07-24-2012, 11:06 AM

In Arizona you don't even need a permit. Why didn't anyone take down Jared Loughner, surely people in that large Arizona crowd had guns. My supposition -- when it happens that fast, it's a lot easier to react in theory than in practice.

Matthew H · #11 07-24-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

Yes, many of the folks in South Central LA feel the same way. Most of the gang related homicide cases end up manslaughter due to there being no real proof as to who was just defending themselves... Too bad for the kids that get caught in the crossfire. Maybe they should be armed too. I totally agree with "a lot of other folks in Colorado" We need more guns. If people had guns that night they could have shot back... He did have body armor though, so the next time you bring your family out to the movies, make sure everyone has their gun and body armor on. There, problem solved.

Runscott · #12 07-24-2012, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

Preserved to remind me of the public mentality toward "dealing with loons". Thanks for your insight David.

Runscott · #13 07-23-2012, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, to me premeditation and planning is more consistent with being evil (knowing right from wrong but choosing to do wrong) than insane. But of course it's a case by case inquiry, in an imperfect world, where ultimately people make that judgment based on conflicting testimony of paid psychiatrists, and of course their common sense.

I think you are probably right, but it seems odd that there was no prior indication of evil. Many people don't realize that a mental break does not necessarily affect one's ability to premeditate and plan, and in many cases cognitive abilities improve - many people do some of their best work while in a manic state.

The judgement made by people using their 'common sense' is really what would be of concern to me, as most people really don't understand mental illness. Another curiosity is that in situations where there is a choice, the mentally ill will often ask for a jury trial, trusting the 'common sense' of such jurors over a judge, who they perceive as being the enemy, when in fact the judge (especially in mental health court) will have far more insight into their condition.

(Edited to remove possibly offensive statement)

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