Addie Joss auto?

Leon · #1 08-28-2012, 01:37 PM

this thread is copied from the card side of the board for some comments from the autograph guys.....

Scott Garner · #2 08-28-2012, 02:05 PM

WOW! Boy, I'll tell you, that's one heck of a way to introduce yourself to net54!

Very interesting post, indeed! Good luck in your quest to have this authenticated.

BTW, there is a book that is soon to come out, which will address the autographs of all the members of the baseball Hall of Fame. I wonder if there will be another exemplar provided of Joss in the book?

Whose estate did your Joss autograph originate from, just out of curiousity?

novakjr · #3 08-28-2012, 02:27 PM

You could always compare it to this CC/Morales Joss

http://www.myccsa.com/lot/235/addie-...signature.aspx

tbob · #4 08-28-2012, 02:29 PM

I think you need to have the signature you have authenticated because there are some dissimilarities in "Joss" between the postcard and the "Joss" in your signature. Also if Kevin Keating has an authentic Addie Joss signature on file he can examine the "A" in Addie which in your example is very distinctive. I wish you the best and hope you strike gold.

MiracleBraves1914 · #5 08-28-2012, 02:42 PM

Scott, I don't remember offhand the name of the man. The auction may have just been listed as "A prominent Texas...etc" but I honestly can't recall. Apparently he was involved in the hobby for around 60 years, I'll let you know if I can dig it up. Obviously, it's something I'd need to have authenticated/disproved eventually.
I'd never seen a picture of the "Respectfully yours" signature before so thank you to the user that posted it. It's great to finally have examples to compare it to, regardless of outcome, after all these years of looking. Thanks guys! This site is amazing.
-Matt

bender07 · #6 08-28-2012, 02:45 PM

He was kidding regarding the Coach's Corner link. They're a very well known proprietor of fake autographs.

novakjr · #7 08-28-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bender07

He was kidding regarding the Coach's Corner link. They're a very well known proprietor of fake autographs.

Sorry, forgot he was a new guy...I should've been a little less subtle about that...

bender07 · #8 08-28-2012, 02:42 PM

This is great and I hope it's genuine. The "J's" have drastic slant variations and that "A" is very unique so we'll see if Keating has one. Who wrote that book again that's coming out in the Fall? Maybe contact him?

Scott Garner · #9 08-28-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bender07

This is great and I hope it's genuine. The "J's" have drastic slant variations and that "A" is very unique so we'll see if Keating has one. Who wrote that book again that's coming out in the Fall? Maybe contact him?

In comparing both the scripted words "Addie Joss" in Matt's scan to the Norman Joss postcard, there are also marked differences in the "d" in Addie and the "d" where Addie wrote out his address in Toledo, OH.
Having someone more with more expertise look at the autograph would definately be a good idea.

BTW, the person that is coming out with the book on HOF autographs is autograph expert Ron Keurajian.

mschwade · #10 08-28-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbob

I think you need to have the signature you have authenticated because there are some dissimilarities in "Joss" between the postcard and the "Joss" in your signature. Also if Kevin Keating has an authentic Addie Joss signature on file he can examine the "A" in Addie which in your example is very distinctive. I wish you the best and hope you strike gold.

I noticed the slant difference and the o in Joss on the signature connects to the first s like a cursive o usually does while the postcard's o is more like a cursive lower-case a, sort of like how Mel Ott connects his O with his t.

JimStinson · #11 08-28-2012, 03:35 PM

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

chaddurbin · #12 08-28-2012, 04:25 PM

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

HOF Auto Rookies · #13 08-28-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

+infinity

Scott Garner · #14 08-28-2012, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

Jim,

Great information-thanks!

Has Ron K. ever told you from what time period he believes that the autograph from Nap Lajoie's album was signed?

Also, I know that Joss died from Tubercular Meningitis, but I was unaware that he was ill for a long period of time. I do know that the TB Meningitis that Joss ultimately died of struck him suddenly in April of 1911 and he died within a few days, shocking the baseball world at the time.

Did Joss suffer from other major ailments as well? It's amazing that he was able to throw a perfect game in 1908 and a no-hitter in 1910 if he did.
Just wondering....

RichardSimon · #15 08-28-2012, 04:31 PM

I would agree that the autograph of Joss should be authenticated. However, the one person whose opinion I would trust on this is not a formal authenticator.
Ron Keurajian would be the one person I would trust to give an opinion on this autograph.
I know him but it seems that Jim knows him much better then I do.
Perhaps he can help out here.
Jim, would you want to ask him if he will help?

David Atkatz · #16 08-28-2012, 04:29 PM

Conway Barker, Jim.

I've still got some of his old price lists. Man! Those prices! Still it was too much money for me when I was twelve or so.

jeffmohler · #17 08-28-2012, 06:32 PM

Jim - if I recall correctly, the Texas dealer you reference was Conway Barker. William Van Buskirk used to consign material to Mr. Barker to sell.

JimStinson · #18 08-28-2012, 06:42 PM

I believe thats the guy, he was pleasant and knowledgible and honest.

I culled this from wiki but the SABR book goes into alot more detail. Joss was a seriously frail man

Of his 160 Major League wins, an astonishing 45 were shutouts. Joss's 1.89 career ERA is ranked second all-time (behind that of Ed Walsh), while his 0.97 WHIP is the lowest career WHIP in MLB history. His lifetime wins total suffered because he missed portions of several seasons due to injury and illness

MiracleBraves1914 · #19 08-28-2012, 10:26 PM

Jim, the name Conrad Barker definitely rings a bell. That very well could be him but I'm by no means certain.
I'll keep everyone posted as I attempt to authenticate it. Thank you for all the information and help!

mschwade · #20 08-29-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiracleBraves1914

Jim, the name Conrad Barker definitely rings a bell. That very well could be him but I'm by no means certain.
I'll keep everyone posted as I attempt to authenticate it. Thank you for all the information and help!

Matt - start with Kevin Keating for your authenticating... 703-519-9881

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