HOF ballot coming up

[Runscott]

I find these debates very interesting - I can't conceive that anyone would consider letting these guys in, but you guys can't conceive the opposite It's almost like political viewpoints, or legalizing pot.

[D. Bergin]

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing.........I've just grown very weary of it. It seems like there's no end, and this is a shadow that will hang over all athletes for a very long time.

I'm at the point, if Bonds gets in..........that's great, he is without a doubt the most dominant hitter I've ever seen in my time. If he doesn't get in..........well, that won't break my heart either.

I am also a bit loathe to see Baseball go the way of the NCAA. Wiping out teams, records, players, statistics and pretending large swaths of history never even existed...............for better or for worse.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing.........I've just grown very weary of it. It seems like there's no end, and this is a shadow that will hang over all athletes for a very long time.

I'm at the point, if Bonds gets in..........that's great, he is without a doubt the most dominant hitter I've ever seen in my time. If he doesn't get in..........well, that won't break my heart either.

I am also a bit loathe to see Baseball go the way of the NCAA. Wiping out teams, records, players, statistics and pretending large swaths of history never even existed...............for better or for worse.

I feel the exact same way. Let them in and then trust the fans who go to Cooperstown to know the history of the game. I wouldn't feel dirty about seeing a Barry Bonds plaque. It would give me a chance to explain to my kids "here's a guy that was already an incredible talent, and yet he got greedy and took drugs in order to gain more fame". Their legacy is already what it is, whether they make it in the HOF or not.

[David W]

I think you have to put all the guys who started in the mid 80's to early 90's, or none of them.

I personally think almost all were using some sort of PED's.

You cannot have the incredible, historic numbers in the huge quantities and at the advanced ages without getting a "little pick me up" of PED's.

Randy Johnson, Clemens, Bonds, should have been declining in production as they hit the mid 30's instead they were better than ever.

Piazza has offensive numbers that no catcher ever had before or since.....

Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......

Either put them all in, or put none in, as we only know of a handful who were caught when it is likely all were using to some extent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will lose all faith if it turns out Ripken, Gwynn, Maddux or Griffey used. Or Jeter.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's your evidence that Ray Lewis was guilty of anything other than the misdemeanor he pleaded to?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

True, the steroids mostly speed recovery. Which is exactly what makes it help build strength for an athlete who trains.

When things were coming out I asked someone I knew who was a wrestler/bodybuilder (classic wrestling, not TV wrestling) about steroids.
He said that the aid in recovery was the key. Typically someone needs downtime in training, heavy weights one day speed the next, or a couple days of weight followed by a couple light days. The muscles get damaged and get rebuilt a bit bigger and stronger. But it takes time, and overdoing it makes you weaker.
But with steroids the recovery is fast enough that someone can train hard every day. So the benefits of the workouts are at least twice as fast. Some stuff also lets the rebuilt muscle be much stronger, so a combination leads to a lot of mass and strength very quickly.

The downside is that once a person lays off the stuff they're going to be injury prone since now the workouts do far more damage than normal recovery time can account for. Nearly all the main users had a lost year with maybe a second "off" year after as they got hurt and readjusted to being normal again. And a rash of those happened in the year or two leading up to the testing program. still more came as the program was begun although the first year was very weak testing.

It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David W

Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

On the pitching side Steve Stone had a Cy Young season out of nowhere, and then vanished immediately.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

Yes Brady and Gonzo certainly do raise some eyebrows, and Jose Bautista if you were to throw out the past two seasons and just have his first breakout season.

It's looking pretty clear something helped, but with Jose, he made some major major adjustments at the plate, and kudos to Chad Mottola for that, Jose owes him almost every cent of his paycheck.