O/T feel sick inside - CT Elementary shooting

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm thinking about removing your keyboard, as we all know that without a keyboard, you couldn't put words in my mouth.

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

[packs]

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

I think that's an aspirational goal with which everyone would agree, but how realistic is that? What specifically do you propose to do? What does it mean, let's get at the root of what drives people to kill?

[packs]

Not just murder in a singular act. But what is driving people to kill as many people as they can at once? Almost entirely strangers for the most part. Is it the celebrity that the media creates? Or is it driven by something else? In Asia they have had a slew of mass stabbing outbreaks at elementary schools. They have yet to understand why they're the target, much like we have yet to understand why mass killings happen so frequently in this country. I understand that a gun allows a person to inflict mass damage with minimum effort. But why is that person holding it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Not just murder in a singular act. But what is driving people to kill as many people at once? Almost entirely strangers for the most part. Is it the celebrity that the media creates? Or is it driven by something else? In Asia they have had a slew of mass stabbing outbreaks at elementary schools. They have yet to understand why they're the target, much like we have yet to understand why mass killings happen so frequently in this country.

How do you propose to figure that out? Appoint a commission of psychologists to interview those perpetrators who survived and their families? I really don't understand how we could get meaningful answers or what we would do with them. Suppose a factor is publicity, can we ban media coverage of the next one?

[oldjudge]

This is an horrific situation and my thoughts go out to the families in this small Connecticut town. What I wonder is what has really changed in our society. Twenty years ago we never heard about this type of thing. Guns weren't any harder to get then. School security was less strict then. Just as many people drank and did drugs. No, I think this is something more basic. Maybe it's the violence in all the video games that kids play starting at such an early age. Maybe it's an overcrowded court system or a more forgiving judicial system which allows people who should be behind bars out on the streets. I don't know the answer --hopefully someone smarter than me will figure it out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

This is an horrific situation and my thoughts go out to the families in this small Connecticut town. What I wonder is what has really changed in our society. Twenty years ago we never heard about this type of thing. Guns weren't any harder to get then. School security was less strict then. Just as many people drank and did drugs. No, I think this is something more basic. Maybe it's the violence in all the video games that kids play starting at such an early age. Maybe it's an overcrowded court system or a more forgiving judicial system which allows people who should be behind bars out on the streets. I don't know the answer --hopefully someone smarter than me will figure it out.

Jay maybe it's more frequent now but these things have been happening for more than 20 years. For example

In 1949, 28 year old Howard Barton Unruh perpetrated the first single-episode mass murderer in U.S. history killing 13 people. His murderous rampage became known as the “Walk of Death,” and in twelve minutes he killed 13 people and wounded several others using a German made pistol. Howard Barton Unruh was committed to an asylum after being found criminally insane. He died in 2009 due to illness at the age of 88.

- In 1958, Charles Raymond Starkweather and his 14-year-old girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate murdered 11 people in Nebraska and Wyoming by shooting, strangling and stabbing them. Charles Raymond Starkweather received the death penalty for his crimes and was executed at the age of 20 in 1959. His girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate became the youngest female to be tried for first-degree murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment.

[Wymers Auction]

I would ask that everyone says a little prayer for the families of these babies as well as the families of all the other victims. This story has broke the heart of a nation.

[cyseymour]

The biggest problem is that the media gets on the story and starts posting photos of the murderer and talking about his life. Then there are other sick people reading it who want the same attention. They turn murder into a theatrical performance, each time finding a new locale - a movie theater, a mall, a Sikh temple, an elementary school, etc. Just another cruel twist on the same theme, so they can be known as the "guy who did the murder in the _____." Just always finding a new way to shock people.

The media has got to stop publishing the names of the murderers. Otherwise, the whole thing will never end. Anytime they talk about the murderer's life, it is just another advertisement to encourage another shooting. If they stopped calling the murderer by name, you'd see the rate of the shootings decrease, and fast. Stop giving them the spotlight.

[packs]

I don't have answers. I only have questions too. But its obvious that something is driving these actions because not too many other countries have mass murders, especially as frequently as we do. And a lot of these events take place in school settings. Is it the access to guns? Maybe. But what would they be doing without them? Even scarier to think about in a sense. Someone brought up McVee earlier.

There has to be some subversive element to daily life in this country. I think if we discovered what that was we would at least have something to build from. I would prefer that to: what do you expect us to do about it.

[Matthew80]

Here's hoping the freedom of the press and the right to keep and bear arms survives.

And woe to any criminal who comes after my family (or my cards)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree it would be very helpful to understand what brings these things about, and I don't disagree that if there is a rational way we should try, but again, one obvious step seems to be to ban assault weapons and tighten gun control. Of course it isn't a perfect solution, but look how easy it was for the Aurora killer to get weapons. I suspect we will see the same thing here.

It also would be great to completely revamp a culture where violence is romanticized in films and on TV and in music, but that won't happen.

[packs]

I just don't think that taking guns away is a solution. As has been pointed out, guns are no esaier to get today than they've ever been. If anything they're harder to get in general, considering not too long ago you didn't even need a permit and guns and ammo were being sold in department stores. People didn't bring their guns to school in the 60s, 70s, or even the 80s. But they are now. Why is that? What about society has changed? Guns haven't changed. They've always been the same. But now people want to use them. You can take them away. But there will be something else.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree it would be very helpful to understand what brings these things about, and I don't disagree that if there is a rational way we should try, but again, one obvious step seems to be to ban assault weapons and tighten gun control. Of course it isn't a perfect solution, but look how easy it was for the Aurora killer to get weapons. I suspect we will see the same thing here.

It also would be great to completely revamp a culture where violence is romanticized in films and on TV and in music, but that won't happen.

We could become like Afghanistan where we ban certain forms of cultural entertainment, or we could become like the rest of the developed world where we could ban assault weapons. Tough call.

[Vintageismygame]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The biggest problem is that the media gets on the story and starts posting photos of the murderer and talking about his life. Then there are other sick people reading it who want the same attention. They turn murder into a theatrical performance, each time finding a new locale - a movie theater, a mall, a Sikh temple, an elementary school, etc. Just another cruel twist on the same theme, so they can be known as the "guy who did the murder in the _____." Just always finding a new way to shock people.

The media has got to stop publishing the names of the murderers. Otherwise, the whole thing will never end. Anytime they talk about the murderer's life, it is just another advertisement to encourage another shooting. If they stopped calling the murderer by name, you'd see the rate of the shootings decrease, and fast. Stop giving them the spotlight.

I agree 100%

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

Well-said. We're a society that likes to fix symptoms. It's horrible what happened today in Connecticut - perhaps the most horrible thing I've heard about in many years.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

[oldjudge]

Peter--but little school children. I never heard of that. If I missed it, shame on me. However, I think things have changed and society has to do something about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jay I don't disagree that violence is much more pervasive now in our culture, but what role that plays in any given case, who knows.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--but little school children. I never heard of that.

Unfortunately, something similar happened a few years back in the county just west of where I live. The place was Nickel Mines, PA (Lancaster County) and someone unleashed the same ugly, senseless, lethal violence in a one room schoolhouse.

The feeling I had that day I am experiencing again now...utter sadness. I also find that I am asking myself a question and looking for an answer I am unlikely to find. Why on earth would anyone do this?

Peace,

Eric

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

Thanks Peter.

Edited to remove some content. After reading Ben's post in the other thread, I'm thinking this is a subject where 99% of the board are totally ignorant. I've retracted my decision to share anything with such people.

[bbcarddan]

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bbcarddan

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm all for improving mental health care but while we are doing that, I don't see the upside to preserving the ability to buy assault weapons or our lax gun control laws. The Second Amendment doesn't mean one cannot heavily regulate.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm all for improving mental health care but while we are doing that, I don't see the upside to preserving the ability to buy assault weapons or our lax gun control laws. The Second Amendment doesn't mean one cannot heavily regulate.

The best way to improve one's mental health is to stop taking pills and seeing therapists.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

Scott, do you also think we shouldn't have speed limits on our roads and highways because although speeding is dangerous and causes death, it is just a mere symptom of underlying emotional problems?

For that matter, why have any laws at all if all of society's negative symptoms can be cured by some sort of therapeutic process?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Scott, do you also think we shouldn't have speed limits on our roads and highways because although speeding is dangerous and causes death, it is just a mere symptom of underlying emotional problems?

For that matter, why have any laws at all if all of society's negative symptoms can be cured by some sort of therapeutic process?

Cy, those are really bad analogies. I honestly tried to respond, but they simply don't relate in any way to what I said. Sorry.

[npa589]

As an elementary school teacher, this one had an additional context aside from the fact that I'm a human with the capability to empathize.

Determining a """"solution"""" is entirely dependent on what each person believes as the impetus. Even with regard to mental illness, there is still an element of ambiguity as to an answer to the fact that these events are increasing. Focusing alone on that aspect of it, that's why I disregard the gun conversation as any type of solution. I'm not even going to spout off the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" as some type of one-line argument to combat people who want to eliminate assault weapons. I believe that that conversation should be discussed in a civil manner, but entirely disagree and am usually frustrated when an event like this triggers that conversation.

As a Christian, my entire outlook at it differs at the impetus of the tragedy. Take God out, more evil will be let in. We have gradually taken God out of the country, out of the schools, and out of the government. Now, children play Call of Duty games at a 10000x higher rate than they do learning about their Father in Heaven, and are playing these games during their most vulnerable and impressionable years. Even if you are not a Christian, I think we can all agree with the fact about the desensitization of the culture, and especially the youth - and now 20-30 year olds, since these games allow them to vicariously take lives in a fantasy state and in a vicious, realistic, and to them, a titillating manner. Many times, these games are answers to stress, frustration, and depression. 5 year old kids have started to play these games regularly, and will continue for the next 10 years.

I am sickened, saddened, but also determined. Though a music teacher, I've had my school focus on security, and now reiterated it to the wonderful principal at my school to fight for better security, and to determine and assess the prospect of having trained law enforcement officers on school campuses all day, on rotating shifts. I'm not a big-government guy with regard to anything other than law enforcement. I don't care if they tax me an additional 5% if it means it pays cops more to monitor schools daily, and though I have respect for them, not school police. Will that solve the violence? No. Could it simply drive the violence to other locations? Yes. But, I think we can agree, that the fact that 20 KINDERGARTEN STUDENTS were murdered breaks us down in more a manner than adults. Sad all the same, pathetic and dastardly all the same, but these were the most helpless children that were at this school.


God, have mercy on us, have mercy on our country, comfort all of the parents who lost their loved and cherished babies this morning. Please help me and others to involve you more before these events, and not to just call on you after.

[Wite3]

*sigh*

I am an elementary teacher and today was especially difficult. I agree with some posters and just laugh at others. Here are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. I spent the better part of today dealing with this and my feelings might change but here it goes...

Mental Illness is just that. An illness. Nothing more, nothing less. It needs to be destygmatized. The reason is that people often ignore or excuse it and see it is some kind of horrendous problem (it can be, but often it can be managed and treated humanely). Often mental illness is treatable and manageable. In the 20 years I have been working with children, I have seen my share of children and parents with different types of mental illness from SED (seriously emotionally disturbed) to Bipolarism and depression. Parents often ignore warning signs, deny anything is wrong, take it personally, etc. Society has put a lot of pressure on these people to be "normal." This attitude seems to be causing problems. I would not be surprised at all if this person's mental status was questioned as early as elementary school. It does not excuse what happened but it might give a little perspective.

Gun control might be nice but it will probably never happen. Too hard to change the constitution. On the other hand...nothing is said about ammunition. Tax ammo like you take cigarettes...do not make it illegal...make it really really pricey. Might not solve the problem but can certainly help. If you cannot afford munition, it might keep you from buying and using it. Probably not but it couldn't hurt...

To the posters that said this did not happen before...not true...we (humans) have been very proficient at killing others for as long as we first picked up a stone and used it as a tool...When you look at the amount of killings as a ratio of our population, I bet it is less now than in the 1770s. To those of you that say the mass murder aspect is different, I say nope. There have been mass murderers forever. The difference now is the speed at which it can be accomplished and the way it is globally sent around the world. It used to take much longer to kill people before guns but it happened (more often than people realize).

Media has not helped. The media saturation is unreal. It was much easier 30 years ago to insulate your children from these horrific events. Turn off the tv and radio, hide the newspaper. Now, kids see stuff on the internet, phones, tv, radio, e-readers, etc. Much more difficult to avoid the saturation. I had a kid in my 4th grade class pick his phone up after school and immediately started yelling to his friends about the school shooting. Parents need to be aware of what they are handing their kids and how they discuss what is seen on that media. (Of course, the media has been around a long time...I bet people in London were saying the same thing about Jack the Ripper...probably the first mass murderer to have photographic portrayals in the newspaper).

The theory that this is happening because as a nation we have moved away from God and let kids play Call of Duty is sort of ridiculous. The amount of carnage caused in the name of God by countries that were "godly" is unreal. We forget our history so quickly...Crusades, Inquisition, Wars of Religion, etc. Belief in God does not suddenly make the unstable stable and the evil go away.

Call of Duty and other violent video games do not suddenly cause children to be violent. What science has shown is that it makes people predisposed to violence possibly more violent AND in some of those, allows an outlet for that violence. If everyone followed what they saw/did in games, half the country would have taken up farming. I dislike video games for a whole different reason...but that is another discussion on parenting and problem solving.

Again, my thoughts alone...and I am still emotional but there it is...

Joshua

[bbcarddan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

If there was a "fix" it would have been done by now problem is there is no easy "fix". Next to home, school should be the one place where parents can send their children and be safe from harm!

I don`t know how the security is at this school but I wish it was mandatory in this country that all public schools had doors that lock automatically and have at least a security camera at main entrance to view visitors before allowing them in. Sort of like having mandatory fire sprinklers to save lives.
Not saying that would have made a difference here since we really don`t know how things happened.

This tragedy brings back unpleasant memories for me. At my daughters school about 20 years ago a man entered school and killed the school nurse with a shotgun blast. She was at the front desk filling in for my friends mother who called in sick that day. He took a classroom hostage, fortunatly the principle actually wrestled the gun away from this madman and there were no children hurt. After this happened locking doors and security cameras were installed at all schools in town to hopefully prevent this from happening here again.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by bbcarddan

I don`t know how the security is at this school but I wish it was mandatory in this country that all public schools..... and have at least a security camera at main entrance to view visitors before allowing them in.

At the two schools I described earlier this system is in place.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bbcarddan

If there was a "fix" it would have been done by now problem is there is no easy "fix". Next to home, school should be the one place where parents can send their children and be safe from harm!

You and I seem to be in agreement - fixing symptoms doesn't take care of the entire problem. The more you take care of 'up front' (fixing the actual problem), the less you have to do on the back-end (fixing 'symptoms' through things like metal detectors, more security, tighter gun control). The solution should be a mixture of both, but it ends up being primarily back-end.

You could go totally right and install fortresses around all schools, with armed guards, metal detectors, bubbles around each child's desk. Or you could go totally left and make every human being see a psychiatrist every week for their entire life, with all sorts of laws prescribing treatment for a plethora of different symptoms of mental illness. We need something in-between that doesn't violate Constitutional rights, but protects our society.

[Matthew H]

This event is very different from past mass murders, at least to me. I'd be very surprised if this in not the event that brings on some sort of change. I don't think an assault rifle ban would do anything, I also think that banning guns all together is never going happen. Mental illness will continue to be a non-issue and some families will continue to ignore their loved ones problems until it blows up in their face.

I don't know if, as a society, we'll ever see an end to this level of violence. I believe it's now part of the "norm". I would like to see people draw a line, though, where very young children are involved. I believe we should spare no expense at protecting them.

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

There is not a system like this that I am aware of, but there are protocols in place. In schools in Palm Beach county there is whats is known as code red. All doors are locked, blinds are drawn and there has to be absolute silence, meaning no instruction during this period. It is tested monthly. In my experience it has only been used twice. Once when a student called the police saying that two armed men were coming to the school in a car, he was lying to avoid a test, special operations units were dispatched to the campus as well as a helicopter. The second time was when an armed robbery of a 711 had happened in the neighborhood. The protocol was utilized for half an hour, and everything was fine.

I attended two types of high schools one very large and one very small. At the large one with a enrollment of 2500 three armed police officers were on campus at all times. At the very small one with an enrollment of 250 one armed police officer was always on campus.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

There is not a system like this that I am aware of, but there are protocols in place. In schools in Palm Beach county there is whats is known as code red. All doors are locked, blinds are drawn and there has to be absolute silence, meaning no instruction during this period. It is tested monthly. In my experience it has only been used twice. Once when a student called the police saying that two armed men were coming to the school in a car, he was lying to avoid a test, special operations units were dispatched to the campus as well as a helicopter. The second time was when an armed robbery of a 711 had happened in the neighborhood. The protocol was utilized for half an hour, and everything was fine.

I attended two types of high schools one very large and one very small. At the large one with a enrollment of 2500 three armed police officers were on campus at all times. At the very small one with an enrollment of 250 one armed police officer was always on campus.

I found out just now that my son's school has this system in place. My mother-in-law is a retired teacher from there, she said each teacher has a button that alerts the entire school, with a bell, that it's time to lock the doors.

Every school, no matter how rural, should have this system in place.

[bbcarddan]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

This event is very different from past mass murders, at least to me. I'd be very surprised if this in not the event that brings on some sort of change. I don't think an assault rifle ban would do anything, I also think that banning guns all together is never going happen. Mental illness will continue to be a non-issue and some families will continue to ignore their loved ones problems until it blows up in their face.

I don't know if, as a society, we'll ever see an end to this level of violence. I believe it's now part of the "norm". I would like to see people draw a line, though, where very young children are involved. I believe we should spare no expense at protecting them.

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

Matthew I like your idea, it`s sort of along the same line as i am suggesting in an earlier post as well. Maybe this tragedy can make childrens safety (teachers too!) at school a top priority for this country, much like the war on terrorism is. I think this is an idea whoose time has come!