O/T feel sick inside - CT Elementary shooting

Runscott · #1 12-14-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, sure, maybe in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment they need. But in the meantime, maybe politicians for once ought to show some cojones and take assault weapons off the table and stand up to the NRA. Yeah, we know the bullshit that people kill people guns don't, but there is no reason on earth for any civilian to be able to purchase an assault weapon. And it's too damn easy to buy a regular gun in this country too.

But I am pessimistic anything will change.

I'm thinking about removing your keyboard, as we all know that without a keyboard, you couldn't put words in my mouth.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 12-14-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm thinking about removing your keyboard, as we all know that without a keyboard, you couldn't put words in my mouth.

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

packs · #3 12-14-2012, 04:18 PM

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 12-14-2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

I think that's an aspirational goal with which everyone would agree, but how realistic is that? What specifically do you propose to do? What does it mean, let's get at the root of what drives people to kill?

packs · #5 12-14-2012, 04:33 PM

Not just murder in a singular act. But what is driving people to kill as many people as they can at once? Almost entirely strangers for the most part. Is it the celebrity that the media creates? Or is it driven by something else? In Asia they have had a slew of mass stabbing outbreaks at elementary schools. They have yet to understand why they're the target, much like we have yet to understand why mass killings happen so frequently in this country. I understand that a gun allows a person to inflict mass damage with minimum effort. But why is that person holding it?

Peter_Spaeth · #6 12-14-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Not just murder in a singular act. But what is driving people to kill as many people at once? Almost entirely strangers for the most part. Is it the celebrity that the media creates? Or is it driven by something else? In Asia they have had a slew of mass stabbing outbreaks at elementary schools. They have yet to understand why they're the target, much like we have yet to understand why mass killings happen so frequently in this country.

How do you propose to figure that out? Appoint a commission of psychologists to interview those perpetrators who survived and their families? I really don't understand how we could get meaningful answers or what we would do with them. Suppose a factor is publicity, can we ban media coverage of the next one?

oldjudge · #7 12-14-2012, 04:52 PM

This is an horrific situation and my thoughts go out to the families in this small Connecticut town. What I wonder is what has really changed in our society. Twenty years ago we never heard about this type of thing. Guns weren't any harder to get then. School security was less strict then. Just as many people drank and did drugs. No, I think this is something more basic. Maybe it's the violence in all the video games that kids play starting at such an early age. Maybe it's an overcrowded court system or a more forgiving judicial system which allows people who should be behind bars out on the streets. I don't know the answer --hopefully someone smarter than me will figure it out.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 12-14-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

This is an horrific situation and my thoughts go out to the families in this small Connecticut town. What I wonder is what has really changed in our society. Twenty years ago we never heard about this type of thing. Guns weren't any harder to get then. School security was less strict then. Just as many people drank and did drugs. No, I think this is something more basic. Maybe it's the violence in all the video games that kids play starting at such an early age. Maybe it's an overcrowded court system or a more forgiving judicial system which allows people who should be behind bars out on the streets. I don't know the answer --hopefully someone smarter than me will figure it out.

Jay maybe it's more frequent now but these things have been happening for more than 20 years. For example

In 1949, 28 year old Howard Barton Unruh perpetrated the first single-episode mass murderer in U.S. history killing 13 people. His murderous rampage became known as the “Walk of Death,” and in twelve minutes he killed 13 people and wounded several others using a German made pistol. Howard Barton Unruh was committed to an asylum after being found criminally insane. He died in 2009 due to illness at the age of 88.

- In 1958, Charles Raymond Starkweather and his 14-year-old girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate murdered 11 people in Nebraska and Wyoming by shooting, strangling and stabbing them. Charles Raymond Starkweather received the death penalty for his crimes and was executed at the age of 20 in 1959. His girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate became the youngest female to be tried for first-degree murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment.

Wymers Auction · #9 12-15-2012, 12:59 AM

I would ask that everyone says a little prayer for the families of these babies as well as the families of all the other victims. This story has broke the heart of a nation.

cyseymour · #10 12-14-2012, 04:42 PM

The biggest problem is that the media gets on the story and starts posting photos of the murderer and talking about his life. Then there are other sick people reading it who want the same attention. They turn murder into a theatrical performance, each time finding a new locale - a movie theater, a mall, a Sikh temple, an elementary school, etc. Just another cruel twist on the same theme, so they can be known as the "guy who did the murder in the _____." Just always finding a new way to shock people.

The media has got to stop publishing the names of the murderers. Otherwise, the whole thing will never end. Anytime they talk about the murderer's life, it is just another advertisement to encourage another shooting. If they stopped calling the murderer by name, you'd see the rate of the shootings decrease, and fast. Stop giving them the spotlight.

packs · #11 12-14-2012, 04:44 PM

I don't have answers. I only have questions too. But its obvious that something is driving these actions because not too many other countries have mass murders, especially as frequently as we do. And a lot of these events take place in school settings. Is it the access to guns? Maybe. But what would they be doing without them? Even scarier to think about in a sense. Someone brought up McVee earlier.

There has to be some subversive element to daily life in this country. I think if we discovered what that was we would at least have something to build from. I would prefer that to: what do you expect us to do about it.

Matthew80 · #12 12-14-2012, 04:53 PM

Here's hoping the freedom of the press and the right to keep and bear arms survives.

And woe to any criminal who comes after my family (or my cards)

Peter_Spaeth · #13 12-14-2012, 04:55 PM

I agree it would be very helpful to understand what brings these things about, and I don't disagree that if there is a rational way we should try, but again, one obvious step seems to be to ban assault weapons and tighten gun control. Of course it isn't a perfect solution, but look how easy it was for the Aurora killer to get weapons. I suspect we will see the same thing here.

It also would be great to completely revamp a culture where violence is romanticized in films and on TV and in music, but that won't happen.

Vintageismygame · #14 12-14-2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The biggest problem is that the media gets on the story and starts posting photos of the murderer and talking about his life. Then there are other sick people reading it who want the same attention. They turn murder into a theatrical performance, each time finding a new locale - a movie theater, a mall, a Sikh temple, an elementary school, etc. Just another cruel twist on the same theme, so they can be known as the "guy who did the murder in the _____." Just always finding a new way to shock people.

The media has got to stop publishing the names of the murderers. Otherwise, the whole thing will never end. Anytime they talk about the murderer's life, it is just another advertisement to encourage another shooting. If they stopped calling the murderer by name, you'd see the rate of the shootings decrease, and fast. Stop giving them the spotlight.

I agree 100%

Runscott · #15 12-14-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

Well-said. We're a society that likes to fix symptoms. It's horrible what happened today in Connecticut - perhaps the most horrible thing I've heard about in many years.

Runscott · #16 12-14-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

Peter_Spaeth · #17 12-14-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

oldjudge · #18 12-14-2012, 05:07 PM

Peter--but little school children. I never heard of that. If I missed it, shame on me. However, I think things have changed and society has to do something about it.

Peter_Spaeth · #19 12-14-2012, 05:09 PM

Jay I don't disagree that violence is much more pervasive now in our culture, but what role that plays in any given case, who knows.

Eric72 · #20 12-14-2012, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--but little school children. I never heard of that.

Unfortunately, something similar happened a few years back in the county just west of where I live. The place was Nickel Mines, PA (Lancaster County) and someone unleashed the same ugly, senseless, lethal violence in a one room schoolhouse.

The feeling I had that day I am experiencing again now...utter sadness. I also find that I am asking myself a question and looking for an answer I am unlikely to find. Why on earth would anyone do this?

Peace,

Eric

Runscott · #21 12-14-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

Thanks Peter.

Edited to remove some content. After reading Ben's post in the other thread, I'm thinking this is a subject where 99% of the board are totally ignorant. I've retracted my decision to share anything with such people.

bbcarddan · #22 12-14-2012, 05:22 PM

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

Runscott · #23 12-14-2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcarddan

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

Peter_Spaeth · #24 12-14-2012, 05:44 PM

I'm all for improving mental health care but while we are doing that, I don't see the upside to preserving the ability to buy assault weapons or our lax gun control laws. The Second Amendment doesn't mean one cannot heavily regulate.

cyseymour · #25 12-14-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

Scott, do you also think we shouldn't have speed limits on our roads and highways because although speeding is dangerous and causes death, it is just a mere symptom of underlying emotional problems?

For that matter, why have any laws at all if all of society's negative symptoms can be cured by some sort of therapeutic process?

npa589 · #26 12-14-2012, 05:54 PM

As an elementary school teacher, this one had an additional context aside from the fact that I'm a human with the capability to empathize.

Determining a """"solution"""" is entirely dependent on what each person believes as the impetus. Even with regard to mental illness, there is still an element of ambiguity as to an answer to the fact that these events are increasing. Focusing alone on that aspect of it, that's why I disregard the gun conversation as any type of solution. I'm not even going to spout off the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" as some type of one-line argument to combat people who want to eliminate assault weapons. I believe that that conversation should be discussed in a civil manner, but entirely disagree and am usually frustrated when an event like this triggers that conversation.

As a Christian, my entire outlook at it differs at the impetus of the tragedy. Take God out, more evil will be let in. We have gradually taken God out of the country, out of the schools, and out of the government. Now, children play Call of Duty games at a 10000x higher rate than they do learning about their Father in Heaven, and are playing these games during their most vulnerable and impressionable years. Even if you are not a Christian, I think we can all agree with the fact about the desensitization of the culture, and especially the youth - and now 20-30 year olds, since these games allow them to vicariously take lives in a fantasy state and in a vicious, realistic, and to them, a titillating manner. Many times, these games are answers to stress, frustration, and depression. 5 year old kids have started to play these games regularly, and will continue for the next 10 years.

I am sickened, saddened, but also determined. Though a music teacher, I've had my school focus on security, and now reiterated it to the wonderful principal at my school to fight for better security, and to determine and assess the prospect of having trained law enforcement officers on school campuses all day, on rotating shifts. I'm not a big-government guy with regard to anything other than law enforcement. I don't care if they tax me an additional 5% if it means it pays cops more to monitor schools daily, and though I have respect for them, not school police. Will that solve the violence? No. Could it simply drive the violence to other locations? Yes. But, I think we can agree, that the fact that 20 KINDERGARTEN STUDENTS were murdered breaks us down in more a manner than adults. Sad all the same, pathetic and dastardly all the same, but these were the most helpless children that were at this school.

God, have mercy on us, have mercy on our country, comfort all of the parents who lost their loved and cherished babies this morning. Please help me and others to involve you more before these events, and not to just call on you after.

bbcarddan · #27 12-14-2012, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

If there was a "fix" it would have been done by now problem is there is no easy "fix". Next to home, school should be the one place where parents can send their children and be safe from harm!

I don`t know how the security is at this school but I wish it was mandatory in this country that all public schools had doors that lock automatically and have at least a security camera at main entrance to view visitors before allowing them in. Sort of like having mandatory fire sprinklers to save lives.
Not saying that would have made a difference here since we really don`t know how things happened.

This tragedy brings back unpleasant memories for me. At my daughters school about 20 years ago a man entered school and killed the school nurse with a shotgun blast. She was at the front desk filling in for my friends mother who called in sick that day. He took a classroom hostage, fortunatly the principle actually wrestled the gun away from this madman and there were no children hurt. After this happened locking doors and security cameras were installed at all schools in town to hopefully prevent this from happening here again.

Matthew H · #28 12-14-2012, 05:45 PM

This event is very different from past mass murders, at least to me. I'd be very surprised if this in not the event that brings on some sort of change. I don't think an assault rifle ban would do anything, I also think that banning guns all together is never going happen. Mental illness will continue to be a non-issue and some families will continue to ignore their loved ones problems until it blows up in their face.

I don't know if, as a society, we'll ever see an end to this level of violence. I believe it's now part of the "norm". I would like to see people draw a line, though, where very young children are involved. I believe we should spare no expense at protecting them.

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

Jlighter · #29 12-14-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

There is not a system like this that I am aware of, but there are protocols in place. In schools in Palm Beach county there is whats is known as code red. All doors are locked, blinds are drawn and there has to be absolute silence, meaning no instruction during this period. It is tested monthly. In my experience it has only been used twice. Once when a student called the police saying that two armed men were coming to the school in a car, he was lying to avoid a test, special operations units were dispatched to the campus as well as a helicopter. The second time was when an armed robbery of a 711 had happened in the neighborhood. The protocol was utilized for half an hour, and everything was fine.

I attended two types of high schools one very large and one very small. At the large one with a enrollment of 2500 three armed police officers were on campus at all times. At the very small one with an enrollment of 250 one armed police officer was always on campus.

bbcarddan · #30 12-14-2012, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew H

This event is very different from past mass murders, at least to me. I'd be very surprised if this in not the event that brings on some sort of change. I don't think an assault rifle ban would do anything, I also think that banning guns all together is never going happen. Mental illness will continue to be a non-issue and some families will continue to ignore their loved ones problems until it blows up in their face.

I don't know if, as a society, we'll ever see an end to this level of violence. I believe it's now part of the "norm". I would like to see people draw a line, though, where very young children are involved. I believe we should spare no expense at protecting them.

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

Matthew I like your idea, it`s sort of along the same line as i am suggesting in an earlier post as well. Maybe this tragedy can make childrens safety (teachers too!) at school a top priority for this country, much like the war on terrorism is. I think this is an idea whoose time has come!

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