Brooklyn CDV

Saco River Auction · #1 01-15-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Paul Messier has a list of "certain people" who pester him?

Given all the publicity this cdv has generated, I suggest that Troy print up some glossies of himself and carry them around, along with a gold Sharpie.

For three easy payments of $39.95, I will send you one of those glossies with a personal message....and free shipping.

Runscott · #2 01-15-2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

For three easy payments of $39.95, I will send you one of those glossies with a personal message....and free shipping.

Seriously Troy, good luck with the auction. The recent statement you got from Paul sounds fantastic.

And I did speak with someone in the coffee shop today, who knows nothing about photography or antiques, and he had heard about this photo.

Saco River Auction · #3 01-15-2013, 02:13 PM

Thanks Scott, I hope it does well.

drc · #4 01-15-2013, 03:29 PM

As a photo historian, I can say that Paul Messier is one of the most prominent photo conservators in the world and he most definitely could tell the difference between an albumen print and a digital reproduction. I knew who he was long before this thread started.

Saco River Auction · #5 01-15-2013, 03:37 PM

After speaking with the owners of Saco River Auction and the owner of SGC I have your answer.

Firstly SGC has stated that as long as this item is not removed from the holder, SGC will stand behind the item(there Guarantee is listed online)100%. They are not willing to open themselves up to potential problems by cards being broken out of the holder, possibly switched or tampered with, alleged experts of the buyers choice, rendering their own opinion six months or even a year down the road, and other potential problems. They are convinced that the work they did was justified and righteous and this is authentic.

Saco River Auction's official stance on this is the same as all of our other auctions. This card has been authenticated by two of the best companies around and we know this card is real. However we also are not comfortable with potential bad deeds that can take place after the card is out of our control and out of the holder..Instances such as buyers remorse, unqualified opinions from other experts, switched cards and more. Auction houses have items authenticated, because we are not the experts on this type of item. Therefore the guarantee must always rest with the authenticators, SGC, PSA, JSA etc. Our sale on February 6 and all sales after and prior to, are as is where is with no warranties or guarantees. We are not going to change our company policy for one item(although a fantastic item) out of the thousands of items we sell. This would open the door for literally tens of thousands of items that we sell every year.

I would hope that this would not dissuade any bidders on this, but this card has been proven to be a real 19th century albumen and we are happy to sell it.

Troy

Matthew H · #6 01-15-2013, 03:42 PM

It sounds like if the winner opens the slab to test the binder they're SOL if its not legit?

Jacklitsch · #7 01-15-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew H

It sounds like if the winner opens the slab to test the binder they're SOL if its not legit?

That's it in a nutshell.

oldjudge · #8 01-15-2013, 04:12 PM

So Troy what you are saying is that if the binder is tested as to whether it is period, and it is found not to be, the card is not returnable even though it has then been proven to be a fake? While I think that Paul Messier is extremely knowledgeable about 19th century photographs I believe that SGC's knowledge is limited, at best, and I believe that their opinion relating to this piece is virtually worthless. Would you allow Mr Messier to test the binder(assuming he can test it to see if it is period)? If it turns out not to be period then the card is returnable for a full refund.

Saco River Auction · #9 01-15-2013, 06:12 PM

I have spoken with the owners at length and they are not willing to budge on this issue and here are the reasons. They do not believe that the testing is warranted, they do not feel that the testing is safe, and they feel that they have gone above and beyond what has ever been undertaken by any auction hall.

First, the testing that has been done and the opinions of the established experts in both sports collectibles and 19th century photography are rock solid in our opinion. It is unheard of for auction halls to go to multiple experts in order to make bidders feel better. SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff and Paul Messier is a world renowned leader in his field of antique photography. Both have authenticated this item, and Paul's quoted stance, gained today and shared with you all, further solidifies our position that the item we are selling is real and is what we say it is.

The testing that Messier lists in his report is testing that the auction hall is not willing to support. As I have said all along, we consider it a damaging test. Whenever you alter(even in the smallest way) an antique item, it is not longer right and as it was. In business you have to weigh risk vs. reward and in our opinion the risk of the item being damaged or destroyed or altered, is not worth the reward of confirming what we already know which is that this is an authentic item. When Paul Messier inspected the binding agent under heavy magnification, he could clearly see a distinct sheen to the agent which is uniquely associated with the sheen caused by the binding agents used in authentic 19th century albumen prints. This is caused by the chemical makeup of that agent. All examples in his collection showed the same distinct sheen. I mentioned these things in conversation with him today and he agreed that this sheen is the key element in the binding material. To allow a customer to potentially damage or destroy a valuable item, to quantify results that have already been determined by a photography expert, is foolish and risky. We have no doubt that the results of such as test would show that this is an authentic albumen print from the 19th century, but we are not willing to risk damage to the item.

Lastly, we have been signing up a steady stream of bidders on this item as their fears have been removed by the work we have done on this item. If you do not feel comfortable enough to bid on this item then I guess you won't be able to bid. I think it would be unfortunate that you will miss out on a fantastic piece of history, but you gotta follow your own instincts on this.

Aside from that I hope I have answered your questions the best I can.

Troy

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