Stolen Card on Ebay

Fred · #1 02-09-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

"this is much more SCL's fault than it is the person it was accidently shipped to.

Sorry if I turned some heads...

Fault? I'm going to guess it was an honest mistake on the part of the shipper.

Perhaps your initial post was taken out of context but the part that indicated there was no obligation to return the card probably hit people the wrong way.

flavius · #2 02-09-2013, 02:34 PM

While it would be ideal that the person who received the card returned it, you should expect people to be greedy and so to speak "steal" things that are sent to them in the mail for free. He is definitely under no legal obligation to return the card for now...

I would not worry chris, you will most definitely be compensated decently for this incident.

Exhibitman · #3 02-09-2013, 02:38 PM

Keep diggin' Flav. You're halfway to China about now on this one.

Mistake, screw-up, shipping error, whatever you want to call it does not change the nature of the behavior of the ebay seller. It isn't nice, it isn't ethical, and it certainly isn't laudable, admirable or praiseworthy.

I don't "expect" people to keep things sent to them by mistake, especially when they know who sent it and how to return it. I expect them to be honest, speak up, and not seek to screw someone else just because they can. From time to time I get something by mistake from an ebay seller or an auctioneer. I don't just take it and run. I contact the sender and arrange to return it. And I would hope that if I ever make a similar mistake the recipient will have the class and the courtesy to cut me a break. I may be naive but I am pleasantly surprised all the time in this Hobby by the honest and generous behaviors of fellow collectors and sellers and I hope it stays that way. When greedy, sleazy behavior is the expectation, it isn't fun anymore and I'm outta here.

DerekMichael · #4 02-09-2013, 02:54 PM

the ebay seller knows damn well that this is not their card ... the fact that they would then attempt to sell it is absolutely pathetic

Derek Hogue

Bocabirdman · #5 02-09-2013, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

the ebay seller knows damn well that this is not their card ... the fact that they would then attempt to sell it is absolutely pathetic

Derek Hogue

You are assuming that the seller is the guy that got the card in the mail. I ask again, do we know that he didn't buy it from someone else that got it in the mail?

Does every seller know the provenance of every card they sell? The card could been sold by the scumbag TO Kevin

Bocabirdman · #6 02-09-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

You are assuming that the seller is the guy that got the card in the mail. I ask again, do we know that he didn't buy it from someone else that got it in the mail?

Does every seller know the provenance of every card they sell? The card could been sold by the scumbag TO Kevin

It is not only possible but probable that Kevin who has almost 12000 feedbacks and as been a seller for a good while is an unwitting victim of someone selling or consigning him a card that was stolen. Afterall, a seller has to get inventory from somewhere. To jump to the conclusion that he is the thief is one step shy of villagers storming the castle with pitchforks or frontier justice by a lynch mob. I have not heard the O/P say that Kevin is the guy that the card was sent to, just that he is the seller selling it.

I would like to add that I do not know this seller and to my recollection, have never bought anything from him.

Greenmonster · #7 02-09-2013, 03:38 PM

Kevin...DId your Cobb come with additional cards? This seller has several 1907 DIETCHE cards with Lewis erased on the front.

novakjr · #8 02-09-2013, 03:43 PM

Given that the seller has 3 other Dietsche cards(assumedly won in the same auction, and possibly the reason for the mistaken shipping), I think it's more probable that he is the person that it was mistakenly sent to. It's possible that Kevin may only be a consignor..

If you were mistakenly sent this card, and were shady enough to flip it, I'd think you wouldn't want "your" name attached to it, and woulf rather put that on someone else..

I will agree that "Stolen" is a pretty harsh description for the situation though. Unethical, Slimy, Sketchy, Assholish, yes. Stolen, no..

DerekMichael · #9 02-09-2013, 05:35 PM

Fair enough.

Still, Buckler said he notified the ebay seller, so I am curious to see what they have to say when they do answer him.

In the event he is the one who accidentally got the card in the mail, and is now trying to sell it, that is absolutely pathetic.

I hope that is not the case, and that it played out as you said.

Either way, Buckler got screwed and deserves some justice.

Derek Hogue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

You are assuming that the seller is the guy that got the card in the mail. I ask again, do we know that he didn't buy it from someone else that got it in the mail?

Does every seller know the provenance of every card they sell? The card could been sold by the scumbag TO Kevin

hammer · #10 02-09-2013, 02:54 PM

Make sure you are the high bidder in his auction and take it from there.

iwantitiwinit · #11 02-09-2013, 02:59 PM

I am almost certain that it is a federal offense to open a package sent thru the USPS if you are not the addressee even if you are a resident at the address specified. I do not know the rules if it is delivered via FedEx or UPS. Assuming that to be accurate I would think attempting to sell something not addressed to you would be an additional offense.

HRBAKER · #12 02-09-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I am almost certain that it is a federal offense to open a package sent thru the USPS if you are not the addressee even if you are a resident at the address specified. I do not know the rules if it is delivered via FedEx or UPS. Assuming that to be accurate I would think attempting to sell something not addressed to you would be an additional offense.

My assumption was that it was addressed to him but included in the package by mistake.
The seller has been discussed on the board at length previously.

packs · #13 02-09-2013, 03:03 PM

Something like this would have had to have been signed for. If you signed for a package addressed to someone else and opened it and then sold the contents online you have committed a crime. Of course, the package could have been addressed to the seller since it was a shipping mistake.

poorlydrawncat · #14 02-09-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

While it would be ideal that the person who received the card returned it, you should expect people to be greedy and so to speak "steal" things that are sent to them in the mail for free. He is definitely under no legal obligation to return the card for now...

I would not worry chris, you will most definitely be compensated decently for this incident.

Unfortunately Flavius is likely correct regarding the law. In most states, there is no legal obligation to return or pay for items sent to you that you did not order. This is to prevent companies from sending unsolicited items and then demanding payment for them. Of course, it also means that people who are sent items legitimately by mistake generally have no obligation to return or pay for them.

Of course, even if there's no legal liability there could be some civil liability. Who knows what would happen if this were sent to small-claims court...

jcmtiger · #15 02-09-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

While it would be ideal that the person who received the card returned it, you should expect people to be greedy and so to speak "steal" things that are sent to them in the mail for free. He is definitely under no legal obligation to return the card for now...

I would not worry chris, you will most definitely be compensated decently for this incident.

What the %%%%

kmac32 · #16 02-09-2013, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

While it would be ideal that the person who received the card returned it, you should expect people to be greedy and so to speak "steal" things that are sent to them in the mail for free. He is definitely under no legal obligation to return the card for now...

I would not worry chris, you will most definitely be compensated decently for this incident.

Wow.......what happened to your set of ethics?

flavius · #17 02-09-2013, 03:59 PM

If the card was shipped to me I would immediately return it free of charge, but if you are depending on the ethics of the general public to correct a mistake made by a company, then you won't be very happy with the outcome you get a large majority of the time. People are greedy, and if they choose to be a good samaritan and return the card then you thank them greatly, but just in life overall, there are a lot of rude people. 400+ dollars is a lot of money when it comes to motivating people to be mean....

Bryan

calvindog · #18 02-09-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

While it would be ideal that the person who received the card returned it, you should expect people to be greedy and so to speak "steal" things that are sent to them in the mail for free. He is definitely under no legal obligation to return the card for now...

I would not worry chris, you will most definitely be compensated decently for this incident.

Um, if someone sent you something by mistake and you sold it you'd be converting someone else's property to your own. Similarly, if a bank mistakenly puts $1 million in your bank account and you withdraw it and keep it, you're committing a crime. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

flavius · #19 02-09-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Um, if someone sent you something by mistake and you sold it you'd be converting someone else's property to your own. Similarly, if a bank mistakenly puts $1 million in your bank account and you withdraw it and keep it, you're committing a crime. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

The difference there though is the card shipped to this person was obviously in his name and address, otherwise it wouldn't of ended up at his doorstep. I'm assuming he was a customer of the auction house and they somehow switched up who won what auction.

So this means the auction house intended for him to receive the card, and he is fully entitled to keep it. You can't ship something to someone then say it is stolen property when the act of shipping it is giving the item to them...

If a bank puts additional money in your account then that is because of a database error that was not consented to. This issue would be resolved pretty fast and if you withdrew the money before it was fixed, you would go into debt and owe the bank money.

The point here is that this is a mistake on the auction house's end and the receiver of the card is a jerk, but not a completely illegal criminal in the most basic definition. Who knows what could happen if he was taken to court though..

Jlighter · #20 02-09-2013, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

So this means the auction house intended for him to receive the card, and he is fully entitled to keep it. You can't ship something to someone then say it is stolen property when the act of shipping it is giving the item to them...
.

Going by that same logic, if my voter registration gets sent to the wrong address they can vote in my place for the next election.

flavius · #21 02-09-2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlighter

Going by that same logic, if my voter registration gets sent to the wrong address they can vote in my place for the next election.

No because your name would still be on the registration. This is an error on UPS's (or whatever shipping company) part and not whoever issues the registrations.

In this case, the auction intended for say "bob" to receive the card because they filled out the mailing envelope with bob's information and gave consent to give him the item, shown by the fact presumably the mail came in his name and address. For bob, this item was a free gift and nothing more.

The auction house made an internal mistake, and they cannot force whoever they sent to the card to, to go run to the post office and ship it back.

Bob didn't initiate this "crime", the auction house did. Are you going to take him to jail because he got a package in the mail and decided to sell the contents? I'm sure SCL has contacted him, but again, he did nothing legally wrong. If bob initiated this "crime" by hacking into SCL's network, then (aside from hacking) that would be a crime because his intention was to defraud someone else. This is an error on the auction house's part.

I'm not a lawyer or anything but I have had similar experiences in the past and I think the line between ethics and legalities is a very thin one, so I could be wrong I suppose. This is just my opinion.

Bryan

novakjr · #22 02-09-2013, 06:16 PM

flavius. Check the laws on "unjust enrichment"...

Again, I'm not sure who's out on this. I think it's the auction house. Because I believe they would be responsible for both reimbursing the buyer, and the seller for the money's lost by their mistake. If the buyer doesn't get refunded, then I believe he would be the rightful claimant in a case. If the buyer get reimbursed, but the seller doesn't get paid, then I believe he would be the claimant in a case. And if SCL both pays out the seller, and re-imburses the buyer, then they would be the ones ultimately out the money, and they would become the claimant...

Jlighter · #23 02-09-2013, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

No because your name would still be on the registration. This is an error on UPS's (or whatever shipping company) part and not whoever issues the registrations.

In this case, the auction intended for say "bob" to receive the card because they filled out the mailing envelope with bob's information and gave consent to give him the item, shown by the fact presumably the mail came in his name and address. For bob, this item was a free gift and nothing more.

The auction house made an internal mistake, and they cannot force whoever they sent to the card to, to go run to the post office and ship it back.

Bryan

The buyer won and paid for the card. If paid through PayPal there would be a email. If paid through check there would be a paper trail. The invoice most likely stated the correct buyers name, who it was sent to is irrelevant.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the only form of mail recognized by a court of law is registerd mail.

Clutch-Hitter · #24 02-09-2013, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

No because your name would still be on the registration. This is an error on UPS's (or whatever shipping company) part and not whoever issues the registrations.

In this case, the auction intended for say "bob" to receive the card because they filled out the mailing envelope with bob's information and gave consent to give him the item, shown by the fact presumably the mail came in his name and address. For bob, this item was a free gift and nothing more.

The auction house made an internal mistake, and they cannot force whoever they sent to the card to, to go run to the post office and ship it back.

Bob didn't initiate this "crime", the auction house did. Are you going to take him to jail because he got a package in the mail and decided to sell the contents? I'm sure SCL has contacted him, but again, he did nothing legally wrong. If bob initiated this "crime" by hacking into SCL's network, then (aside from hacking) that would be a crime because his intention was to defraud someone else. This is an error on the auction house's part.

I'm not a lawyer or anything but I have had similar experiences in the past and I think the line between ethics and legalities is a very thin one, so I could be wrong I suppose. This is just my opinion.

Bryan

Sir or ma'am,

Do you reckon the receiver of the card knew if he or she should have received the card? You're articulating reasons to do the wrong thing here.

rhettyeakley · #25 02-10-2013, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

Bob didn't initiate this "crime", the auction house did. Are you going to take him to jail because he got a package in the mail and decided to sell the contents? I'm sure SCL has contacted him, but again, he did nothing legally wrong. If bob initiated this "crime" by hacking into SCL's network, then (aside from hacking) that would be a crime because his intention was to defraud someone else. This is an error on the auction house's part.

Classic, now the auction house is the one that initiated a "crime" by MAKING A MISTAKE while the one receiving the package did no wrong keeping the item after he MADE THE DECISION to keep ill gotten gains!

novakjr · #26 02-09-2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

The difference there though is the card shipped to this person was obviously in his name and address, otherwise it wouldn't of ended up at his doorstep. I'm assuming he was a customer of the auction house and they somehow switched up who won what auction.

So this means the auction house intended for him to receive the card, and he is fully entitled to keep it. You can't ship something to someone then say it is stolen property when the act of shipping it is giving the item to them...

If a bank puts additional money in your account then that is because of a database error that was not consented to. This issue would be resolved pretty fast and if you withdrew the money before it was fixed, you would go into debt and owe the bank money.

The point here is that this is a mistake on the auction house's end and the receiver of the card is a jerk, but not a completely illegal criminal in the most basic definition. Who knows what could happen if he was taken to court though..

I think it applies in cases of mis-delivery. I'm not sure if the packing and shipping process also counts as delivery though. But I'd be inclined to think that with SCL being the auction house, that they never factor into the "ownership", only the "possession" of the item. And I think that would make them part of the delivery process involved in the card changing "ownership".

I'm no attorney though, just a lowly Ironworker...

buymycards · #27 02-09-2013, 06:12 PM

Kevin is out of the country until Feb 18th so I'm guessing he won't respond for a while.

calvindog · #28 02-09-2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flavius

The difference there though is the card shipped to this person was obviously in his name and address, otherwise it wouldn't of ended up at his doorstep. I'm assuming he was a customer of the auction house and they somehow switched up who won what auction.

So this means the auction house intended for him to receive the card, and he is fully entitled to keep it. You can't ship something to someone then say it is stolen property when the act of shipping it is giving the item to them...

If a bank puts additional money in your account then that is because of a database error that was not consented to. This issue would be resolved pretty fast and if you withdrew the money before it was fixed, you would go into debt and owe the bank money.

The point here is that this is a mistake on the auction house's end and the receiver of the card is a jerk, but not a completely illegal criminal in the most basic definition. Who knows what could happen if he was taken to court though..

Clearly you're not a criminal lawyer nor did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Peter_Spaeth · #29 02-09-2013, 07:34 PM

Jeff everyone is entitled to an opinion about how the states define crimes.

calvindog · #30 02-09-2013, 07:43 PM

True, true, how could I forget. What would statutory crimes be without personal interpretation and unilateral determination?

Bugsy · #31 02-10-2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Clearly you're not a criminal lawyer nor did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Don't forget the legal precedent set in the landmark Finders v. Keepers case

Eric72 · #32 02-10-2013, 04:18 PM

I am currently taking a class on Business Law. Below is a quote from the textbook which I find appropriate here. Please know that I am not throwing daggers at anyone. I am merely weighing in on where I stand regarding the issue of what is ethical versus what a person is legally required to do.

"Ethical behavior is based on more than meeting minimum legal requirements. It invariably involves a higher, moral standard."

When I mistakenly wind up with something that's not mine, and it can realistically be returned to its rightful owner, I will give it back...every time. Whether discovering that the lid from my neighbor's trash can blew over onto my lawn or finding someone's wallet on the ground in a parking lot, I make sure the item finds its way back to where it belongs.

In this particular case, to anyone receiving somebody else's baseball card in the mail, just give it back. It's the right thing to do. Period.

Best Regards,

Eric

#33 02-09-2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Um, if someone sent you something by mistake and you sold it you'd be converting someone else's property to your own. Similarly, if a bank mistakenly puts $1 million in your bank account and you withdraw it and keep it, you're committing a crime. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

+1

Bocabirdman · #34 02-09-2013, 05:59 PM

I just noticed whit all of my posts, I still neglected to say how sorry I am for your troubles, Chris. I hope you get some justice.

Kevin selling the Cobb aside, wouldn't the Auction House be on the hook for the cash value, at least? I know that doesn't get Ty into your collection but it beats a poke in the eye.

Kenny Cole · #35 02-09-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Um, if someone sent you something by mistake and you sold it you'd be converting someone else's property to your own. Similarly, if a bank mistakenly puts $1 million in your bank account and you withdraw it and keep it, you're committing a crime. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

Don't confuse people who have opinions with facts.

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