Piedmont, Liggett & Myers, and ATC: A Clarification

[canjond]

Craig-

Some of the confusion probably comes from my use of the word "acquired". It is my understanding from factory records that Piedmont (as well as other brands that were owned by the ATC prior to the trust dissolution) were distributed in cigarette packs bearing the American Tobacco Company designation. It was only after the trust was split up and certain manufactures re-emerged that cigarette boxes would start to bear different manufacturer marks, such as L&M. Accordingly, I don't believe there are any Piedmont cigarette boxes prior to the year 1912 that would bear an L&M name. Additionally, there is undoubtedly Piedmont cigarette boxes post-1912 that still bear the ATC designation as inventory was used-up before being reprinted with new designations.

One other interesting thing to note with the "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" information posted. As it relates to Piedmont, I believe the date 1905 relates to the start of the brand. I also believe the Liggett & Myers designation relates to who controlled the brand post- break-up of the ATC (I could be incorrect, but I was unable to find page vi to verify (not sure if you have access to it)).

In other words, I'm not sure it's technically correct to say that in 1905, Piedmont was created with the manufacturer being L&M. I actually believe Piedmont was created in 1905 with the manufacturer being the ATC. In fact, I actually believe that L&M and other various brands acquired by the ATC sat dormant, without every producing a product in the intervening years, until the trust was split. At that point, certain brands had the opportunity to be "reborn"... L&M being one of those brands.

Lastly, for reference is a Piedmont pack (with complete tax stamp) bearing the ATC designation on the box.

[canjond]

FYI - here is a bit more information on the continued manufacturing of the former trust brands (Piedmont included) after the dissolution of the ATC:

http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/pa...gett_duke.html

Finally, with respect to the pack in question, I was actually a bit surprised it's a 10-count pack. The packaging looks more akin to 12-count packaging (i.e., the tax stamp would say twelve along the bottom, not ten). Also, the "reg. u.s. pat. off." stamping on the front is interesting. I'm not sure when packagin frst began bearing that language (maybe someone else knows), but that may help better date the pack to a specific year.

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by canjond

In fact, I actually believe that L&M and other various brands acquired by the ATC sat dormant, without every producing a product in the intervening years, until the trust was split. At that point, certain brands had the opportunity to be "reborn"... L&M being one of those brands.

Correct... and after the dissolution each company struggled to stay afloat since each one was only just a name under the ATC Trust. Their divisions for handling certain aspects of the Trust were spread all over the U.S. and now each one had to work completely independent of one another. So many struggled to build the same infrastructure that existed under the Trust.

It's also important to note that L&M wasn't even listed on the dissolution lawsuit as a company that existed under the ATC. That shows that it was just a name and carried no weight after the ATC took it over in the mid 1900's. Read if curious http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sgc80e00

Jon, I posted an observation on this subject and several other packs a little bit ago on this board and I brought up a question based on Leon's Carolina Brights box. On the side it said it was manufactured by Wells-Wighthead tobacco through L&M.

That leaves me to believe that the box was manufactured after 1911, and after the T206 run. I put it out there to see if anyone had a box of Carolina Brights with the ATC printed on the side of it? Do you have an example?

Thanks,
Jared

[Blitzu]

I also have a theory on how the L&M could exist on the sides of the box prior to 1911...

If you read this page http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/pa...nabrights.html

You'll see that Duke wanted to keep the ownership of a union made cigarette being sold in the south so he may have put and kept the name L&M on the box instead of the ATC to avoid outrage.

Yet I still don't think the box listed above was from the T206 era since it bears the name "L&M successor". That still makes me believe that it was produced after the Trust was dissolved.

Thoughts?


UPDATE: I think I found my answer on the side of one of the T91 cards which were produced by Carolina Brights in 1907... if you look at the pack on the side it says Well-Whitehead Tobacco Co. then underneath, instead of L&M it says Wilson N.C. USA.

That fits inline with the theory above that they left he name Well-Whitehead on the boxes and never printed the ATC name... so it's safe to say that the Carolina Brights boxes with Wilson N.C. USA printed on the side of the boxes with a 1910-11 tax stamp could have contained a T206 card.

See the picture

[White Borders]

Kewl stuff guys - I'm beginning to understand how much effort you've put into this and it's most appreciated.

I've got a "Bright" question: It's my understanding that the Piedmont brand was named after the tobacco producing region in south central Virginia that extended into north central North Carolina. It's also my understanding that the Bright region was also in Virginia, hence the brand Virginia Brights. In what part of Virginia was the Bright region? Did it extend into North Carolina and is that what lead to the brand Carolina Brights?

Thanks
Craig

[tedzan]

Jared and Jon have correctly described the scenario regarding ATC's divesture in 1911. The following pictures are simply intended to illustrate this scenario, as reflected
by the T206 cards....circa 1910 - 1911.

This PIEDMONT pack of mine is the American Tobacco Co. Factory #25, Richmond, VA version (circa 1910). The PIEDMONT Liggett & Myers version (Factory #42) of the
same pack begins in the early months of 1911. Correspondingly, the PIEDMONT advertising on T206's changed to Factory #42 to reflect the anticipated break-up of ATC.

..
.................................................. .................................................. ....... Factory #25 VA (Richmond) ......................................... Factory #42 N.C. (Durham)



DITTO ...... for the AMERICAN BEAUTY brand
..
.................................................. .................................................. .................... Factory #25 VA (Richmond) .......................... Factory #42 N.C. (Durham)




Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina



TED Z

[tedzan]

ATC registered the PIEDMONT brand in the beginning of the 20th Century. By the T206 era, PIEDMONT tobacco had become the "flagship" brand of ATC.
It was producced at the large tobacco plant in Richmond, VA. PIEDMONT tobacco products were distributed throughout the South; and, as far north as
Philadelphia, PA.





TED Z

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by canjond

One other interesting thing to note with the "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" information posted. As it relates to Piedmont, I believe the date 1905 relates to the start of the brand. I also believe the Liggett & Myers designation relates to who controlled the brand post- break-up of the ATC (I could be incorrect, but I was unable to find page vi to verify (not sure if you have access to it)).

Hi John, I was able to find another copy of "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" that contains Page VI.

It says that the Manufactures "... are generally the most recent manufacturer of the brand."

Best Regards,
Craig

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your posts. I noticed on the Fact 42 postcard it says "Home of Chesterfield". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chesterfield wasn't an ATC brand and L&M introduced it shortly after the ATC breakup? Am I starting to catch on?

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your posts. I noticed on the Fact 42 postcard it says "Home of Chesterfield". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chesterfield wasn't an ATC brand and L&M introduced it shortly after the ATC breakup? Am I starting to catch on?

Best Regards,
Craig

Craig

The origin of the Chesterfield brand is 1873 (Drummond Tobacco Company of St. Louis). It was named after a County in Virginia.

In 1898, James Buchanan Duke (ATC) bought the Drummond company; and, Liggett & Myers became part of Duke's trust in 1899.
ATC continued to produce Chesterfield cigarettes until the ATC divesture in 1911, in which this brand became an L & M product.

What I'm not sure of....is why the Chesterfield brand was not a part of the T206 scenario ?


T-Rex TED

[Rob D.]

Ted,

Which building is the tobacco plant in the Richmond postcard?

Thanks.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Which building is the tobacco plant in the Richmond postcard?

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

Thanks, Jason.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

Hi Jason,

I don't believe the brick building with the smoke stack, on the right of the postcard, was American Tobacco. The view of the city on the postcard would have been from the Manchester side of the James river looking back across at downtown Richmond. The major tobacco factories were located in the Shockoe Bottom area of the city which isn't pictured in the postcard. As you said many of the old factories and tobacco buildings in this area have been converted into apartments/lofts/condos.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The origin of the Chesterfield brand is 1873 (Drummond Tobacco Company of St. Louis). It was named after a County in Virginia.

For what it's worth, Chesterfield is also a city in Virginia, south of Richmond, north of Petersburg.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

For what it's worth, Chesterfield is also a city in Virginia, south of Richmond, north of Petersburg.

Jason

Very true. Thanks for identifying the old Factory #25 in my postcard of the Richmond waterfront on the James River. I should've placed a pointer to identify the building.

Incidently, the postmark on this p/c is dated Oct 8, 1908, Richmond, VA.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks for identifying the old Factory #25 in my postcard of the Richmond waterfront on the James River. I should've placed a pointer to identify the building.

Thanks,

TED Z

No worries, Ted. I figured that you meant to do that.

Rob

[canjond]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi John, I was able to find another copy of "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" that contains Page VI.

It says that the Manufactures "... are generally the most recent manufacturer of the brand."

Best Regards,
Craig

So this makes sense then that L&M would be listed. I believe L&M controlled Piedmont (after the break-up) until the brand was discontinued.