Babe Ruth?

JT · #1 04-09-2013, 07:52 PM

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

David Atkatz · #2 04-09-2013, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

Going to?

JT · #3 04-09-2013, 08:04 PM

David,

I know he hasn't produced one iota of anything to back up his allegation. I am sure he is doing "legwork" deep into the night trying to find something.

I personally wouldn't make such an allegation unless I had the proof beforehand, but that is just common sense to me.

yanks12025 · #4 04-09-2013, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Going to?

David,
When you found out your 1927 ball was fake, you said you asked a member who you respected lot. Just wondering if that member has offered his opinion on this Ruth yet?

David Atkatz · #5 04-09-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025

David,
When you found out your 1927 ball was fake, you said you asked a member who you respected lot. Just wondering if that member has offered his opinion on this Ruth yet?

No.

travrosty · #6 04-09-2013, 08:57 PM

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding info doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

Westsiders · #7 04-09-2013, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travrosty

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding oinf doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

Well played, Sir.

rscheck · #8 04-11-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travrosty

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding oinf doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

I believe this eloquently spoke to this.

David Atkatz · #9 04-11-2013, 03:50 PM

Chris and Richard have masterfully painted themselves into a corner.
Either they are in possession of a magic "tell" (giving away the work of the mysterious "Michigan, forger") which they steadfastly refuse to share with hobby professionals, or, they got nothin'.

Either way, someone's full of it.

Big Dave · #10 04-11-2013, 03:52 PM

I hope the ticket sells for 10k+ and the buyer and seller are both happy with the transaction. The overall consensus, by a vast majority, is the autograph and ticket are authentic. I would believe that over any super secret bs being shoveled on here.

travrosty · #11 04-09-2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

he wont, he's a "trust me because i said so" type of guy. the very first post on this thread was disingenuous, when he asks what others think of the ruth auto. it was a setup from the beginning. he couldnt close the deal though. that would involve breaking the secret oath of the royal order of the scarlet mongoose lodge. if me and mark dont like a boxing auto, we show 'why' every time and answer anyone's questions on why we believe it to be bad. we would supply as many exemplars as needed and asked for and wouldn't hesistate to show why. it called transparency and being accountable. anyone can do it this way and claim top secret CIA clearance.

Mr. Zipper · #12 04-09-2013, 08:25 PM

My friend Chris is no fool.

I can't speak to the Ruth. But if this is the work of an active master forger, it would be foolish to publicly announce the tells, and essentially provide a blueprint on how to make a more deceptive forgery.

David Atkatz · #13 04-09-2013, 08:33 PM

That bullshit excuse don't work no more.

No one is asking for a public revelation of the "tells."
Why hasn't that info been shared with H&S, so that they can pull the lot?
Why hasn't that info been shared with Jimmy Spence, so he could stop certifying this particular "master forger"?
Why hasn't the info been shared with PSA? (Same reasons as above.)

The answer is quite simple. No "tells."

jgmp123 · #14 04-09-2013, 08:33 PM

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

David Atkatz · #15 04-09-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Why the hell should they pull it, James? Because Chris said to? The same Chris who told us he left the consignor his phone number, while the consignor has told us twice he did not?

Either Chris is lying, or the consignor is. Guess who I believe?

hugginsandscott · #16 04-10-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

jgmp123 · #17 04-10-2013, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

hugginsandscott · #18 04-10-2013, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

Leon runs an auction house. Do you feel he owes nothing to the hobby? Bill Huggins has been in this hobby since 1976. I have been with him since 1985. Is it a business? Yes. It is also a hobby? Yes. To dismiss our integrity by saying "we owe nothing to the hobby" is a presumptuous statement about who we are as people. We have always done the right thing, in the best interest of the hobby. If there is a problem, we address it in an open and honest manner.
For this particular case, I don't think we have done anything wrong. I guess I don't understand how "you feel for someone who is going to purchase a piece from us." I promise you, anyone who is going to spend the kind of money that this piece is going to sell for, has their own opinions and beliefs about the validity of the piece. They trust the authenticators and their opinions and therefore they are going to spend their money on a piece they like. What business that is of yours, I'm not quite sure. Additionally, all I've received from anyone in this thread is opinion. I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

Runscott · #19 04-10-2013, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

H&S has always been stand-up and has provided as much or more evidence of feeling they owe something to the hobby, as any auction house around.

I won't put words in the OP's mouth, but I have a hard time believing he really meant that statement "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby"

jgmp123 · #20 04-10-2013, 01:24 PM

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

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