Has anybody done this to guard against buying forgeries?

thecatspajamas · #1 06-03-2013, 08:55 PM

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

the 'stache · #2 06-03-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

Thanks, Lance. Good to know I'm on the right track.

I'll probably buy a few from each different set I plan on buying. It's something I can do now while I work on building my savings back up. It will satiate my desire to get vintage cards, and help me learn at the same time.

My eventual goal is to build a website specifically for baseball cards (including scans of my collection) where a lot of the information I assimilate can be passed on to others. There are a bunch of different sites I have found helpful information from, but not one clear "go to" site where this information is readily available without some digging. I know that Net 54 has pretty much everything I could ever need, but for somebody not familiar with how a forum's search works, it might be a little more difficult finding information.

conor912 · #3 06-03-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

This is great advise.

Bill, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple 50's commons to get you started.

the 'stache · #4 06-04-2013, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

This is great advise.

Bill, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple 50's commons to get you started.

Conor, that is awesome, and much appreciated. Will do.

timzcardz · #5 06-04-2013, 07:49 AM

I'd think about going a step further.

Take a common(s) and trim three sides.

You could use scissors, a razor, guillotine paper cutter, and or a roller cutter, or other means. You'll then have a source to see what the effects of various means of trimming look like, compared to the original edge.

Great! Now I'm going to have to go do this myself!

Leon · #6 06-04-2013, 08:28 AM

I have first hand knowledge that the scammers are not targeting collectors such as frequent this board, for the most part. They are selling on Craigslist, ebay and locally at shows etc... And they are doing it on the cards everyone knows about ie.... '52 Mantles, '09 Jackson rookies, '86 Jordons and Goudey Ruths etc... A lot of inexperienced people know what those are and can do a quick Google search to see they are valuable and what they sell for. Then, when they see a '52 Mantle, in a PSA 4 holder, for 5k, they jump on it. All the while the card in the slab is either fake or altered and has been put in the slab fraudulently by the scammers. If collectors get feedback from us on the board, or other hobby veterans, then they (most likely) won't get taken. It's the greed factor the scammers are counting on. I have spoken to the ringleader of a large fraud ring in the hobby for over 2 hours, within the last 2-3 days, on multiple calls. He is the one that is behind the Den Prak stuff too..but this guy is allegedly in Mexico and is very slippery. He has allegedly had a warrant for his arrest for a few years.

brob28 · #7 06-04-2013, 09:23 AM

That's amazing that this guy would talk to you for that long Leon. Is he trying to convince you the cards are legit or is he actually coming clean with you? For obvious reasons I doubt he's coming clean. Can you tell us any details of the conversation(s)?

Regards,

tiger8mush · #8 06-04-2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I have spoken to the ringleader of a large fraud ring in the hobby for over 2 hours, within the last 2-3 days, on multiple calls. He is the one that is behind the Den Prak stuff too..but this guy is allegedly in Mexico and is very slippery. He has allegedly had a warrant for his arrest for a few years.

I'm amazed that this ringleader will openly talk about his fraudulent business for over 2 hours with someone he 1) doesn't know and 2) would likely help get him arrested.

Leon · #9 06-04-2013, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I'm amazed that this ringleader will openly talk about his fraudulent business for over 2 hours with someone he 1) doesn't know and 2) would likely help get him arrested.

Believe me guys, it's a bit surreal when talking to him. He is calculated and very good at what he does. He says he is in Mexico, 2000 miles from the border. I think there is a 50/50 chance of that. He uses a Magic Jack phone so it's not traceable. He uses a device (very common) which changes his IP address daily. He says he has never had a bank account nad has nothing in his name either. He is an identity thief and counterfeiter. He said he has hundreds of SSN's and other credit card and bank information on lots of people. He told me he does it because he has to support his lifestyle and can't make the kind of money he does, legally. One other board member has had similar conversations with him and he confirms the same things the scammer has been telling me. This scammer is the mastermind behind Edwin Arroyo, Den Prak (jailed) and some guy named Hernandez as well as others I am not familiar with. They are all in the San Diego area and close to the border. This same guy is the one who was on our board when I banned him, and was registered as John Perez....then he told me he was Den Prak, but Den was already in jail so that didn't work out for too long for him

. I kept telling him he should use his smarts for good instead of bad but I don't think he cares or wants to. He is quite cordial on the phone.

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