Braun Suspended for Balance of the 2013 Season

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by kmac32

They need to take his MVP award away. Too bad he got off on a technicality before. Cheater and a liar.

I'm very disappointed that Ryan used something he should not have, and whatever the suspension is (65 games, the remainder of the season, iirc), it is completely justified. What Ryan has done is an embarrassment to the game I love, the franchise I have followed since childhood, and it bothers me on a personal level. I hate that he did something against the rules, and that he has lied about it. But, I also hope at some point the truth comes out, because right now, speculation is running rampant. Media outlets are still running stories still filled with a lot of half-truths and conjecture. Things like "Braun has admitted to using PED". Nowhere has he done this. He did not admit to using PED in the statement he issued today. In fact, it was reported several times after the story first broke that he was going to be suspended not for PED, but for a banned substance, which could be one of a hundred different things.

The "his MVP should be taken away" talk is ridiculous. The MVP is a regular season award, and there is no proof whatsoever that Braun used anything before the postseason of 2011. He passed every single drug test while in the minor leagues, and every test administered from 2007 through the 2011 regular season. As for his "getting off on a technicality", no, he didn't. There are carefully established protocols for handling biological specimens used in the drug testing program, and if they are not followed, it is proper to throw that sample out, and not employ any of the testing results in furthering punitive action. Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector, and placed in a Tupperware container in his basement for two days when it was clear there were several Fed Ex locations open between the collector's home and Miller Park (including at least one that took shipments 24 hours a day). Dino Laurenzi did not follow procedure. There is no debating this. Once it was determined that proper handling requirements had not been followed, the sample should have been destroyed. Period. Any test results from the sample are in essence fruit from the poisonous tree.

I have felt from the beginning that there was a strong possibility Ryan did not use a performance enhancer, but something that would help heal the calf muscle injury he'd been suffering with for much of the 2011 season's second half. By the letter of the drug policy agreed upon by MLB and the MLBPA, it wouldn't matter, as it's still breaking the rules, but I could at least understand that, if not condone it.

Right now, I am angry, and disappointed. He could, of course, be guilty of everything he's been accused of. But absent the facts (facts like the written opinion of independent arbiter Shyam Sad), we really don't know everything that happened. He might have been cheating all along, or he might have taken something to heal, not expecting to get tested before the post season. Who knows. But this talk of Ryan Braun being a "scum bag" is a little over the top. I am sure every single one of us have done something we wish we could go back and do differently. I know I have. But Braun is not some low life. He did something stupid, for which he should absolutely serve his suspension. But human beings make mistakes, and if he asks for forgiveness, and truly regrets what he did, I for one will forgive him, and cheer for him again. I hope he's learned from his mistake. More than anything, I am glad that this is now over.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

.....Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector...

Was the collector anybody on this board? Hell, people collect everything these days....

Sadly, Kemp probably should have been the MVP when Braun was given the honor... in any case, I don't think the award should be taken from him becuase then you might as well go back to Barry's MVP awards and trash those also. I'm sure there are others that can have their awards (MVP, Cy Young, etc) taken but the fact is the stats are in the books. However, going forward it would be nice to see a "cleaned up" version of baseball, even without all of the HRs. A little small ball is fun to watch.

It would just be nice to see ALL of the clean players step up to the plate and call "bull $hit" on the players that cheat. Have the players in the union agree to heavy suspensions or expulsion if the player is caught cheating. A nice level playing field would be nice. - just my 2 cents...

[Exhibitman]

If the union and league were serious about cleaning up the game the remedy for a positive would include granting the team the option of voiding the balance of the player's contract and lifetime random WADA-style testing for the balance of the player's time in MLB. A suspension doesn't mean squat to a guy like Braun who can strategize to lessen the impact of the suspension and remain on a massive long-term contract. Heck, he can use the rest of the season to rest up, train and cycle steroid regimens [I kid the Braunmeister] in preparation for next year.

[steve B]

Stiff penalties won't stop it. I doubt much will.

A few quotes from another sport, one that began testing in the 60's, and has fairly stiff penalties. And STILL has people removed from its premier event every year.

"The top riders are obliged to be fresh each time and they can't do that without stimulants. Nobody could or ever will be able to do that because there are no such things as supermen. Doping is necessary in cycling."

Rik van Steenbergen, a top pro in the 40s and 50s

"My closets now will be empty of syringes and prohibited substances. The majority of racers resort to drug products, and those who refuse to admit it are liars."

Dietrich Thurau, many pro wins in 70s and 80s

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say 'treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone."

Jacques Anquetil, Won TDF five times in 50s and 60s

"In 1924, the legendary Pelissier brothers-noted as much for their brutal attacks on the road as their criticism of Tour organizers-abandoned the race over what they considered to be an unfair ruling. Pélissier, Francis and another rider, Maurice Ville, abandoned the Tour at Coutances in 1924 after Desgrange had not let Pélissier to take off a jersey as the sun came up. They were met in the station café by the journalist Albert Londres, who normally wrote about social and international affairs but was following the Tour for Le Petit Parisien. Londres' piece, reproduced largely as a dialogue, appeared under the headline Les Forçats de la Route.
"You wouldn't believe that all this is about nothing more than a few jerseys. This morning, in Cherbourg, a race official came up to me and without a word, he pulled up my jersey to check that I'm not wearing two. What would you say if I pulled open your waistcoat to see if your shirt was clean? That's the way these people behave and I won't stand for it. That's what this is all about." "But what if you were wearing two jerseys?" "That's the point. If I want to, I can wear 15. What I can't do is start with two and finish with only one." "Why not?" "Because that's the rule. We don't only have to work like donkeys, we have to freeze or suffocate as well. Apparently that's an important part of the sport. So I went off to find Desgrange. 'I can't throw my jersey on the road, then?' 'No,' he said, 'you can't throw away anything provided by the organisation.' 'But this isn't the organisation's—it's mine.' "'I don't conduct arguments in the street,' he said. 'OK,' I said, 'if you're not prepared to talk about it in the street, I'm going back to bed.' "'We'll sort it all out in Brest', he said. It will definitely be sorted out in Brest, I said, because I'm quitting. And I did."
Pélissier went to his brother, Francis, told him his decision and encouraged him to do the same. Francis said that suited him because he had a bad stomach and no enthusiasm for racing. Ville said he hadn't been part of the strike but that the other two had picked him up along the road. He was too tired to go on, he said.
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...' From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..." "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece. "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.' Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."
Londres had the best colour piece he'd ever written, although Francis claimed afterwards they'd taken advantage of his gullibility by exaggerating.*

*It should be noted that the Pellissiers were know for having an odd sense of humor, some think the entire thing was a put -on.


The earliest case in cycling was 1886.

Steve B

[HRBAKER]

I think voided contracts will stop it
Of course the owners would have the stones to do it.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

There need to be conditions to make them voidable. Owners cannot just go around deciding they dont want to pay anymore.

[keithsky]

I laughed when he said I made a mistake. No a mistake happens once or twice and you learn from it what he did over a course of a couple years is considered a habit not a mistake. douche bag

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by steve B

Stiff penalties won't stop it. I doubt much will.

A few quotes from another sport, one that began testing in the 60's, and has fairly stiff penalties. And STILL has people removed from its premier event every year.

"The top riders are obliged to be fresh each time and they can't do that without stimulants. Nobody could or ever will be able to do that because there are no such things as supermen. Doping is necessary in cycling."

Rik van Steenbergen, a top pro in the 40s and 50s

"My closets now will be empty of syringes and prohibited substances. The majority of racers resort to drug products, and those who refuse to admit it are liars."

Dietrich Thurau, many pro wins in 70s and 80s

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say 'treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone."

Jacques Anquetil, Won TDF five times in 50s and 60s

"In 1924, the legendary Pelissier brothers-noted as much for their brutal attacks on the road as their criticism of Tour organizers-abandoned the race over what they considered to be an unfair ruling. Pélissier, Francis and another rider, Maurice Ville, abandoned the Tour at Coutances in 1924 after Desgrange had not let Pélissier to take off a jersey as the sun came up. They were met in the station café by the journalist Albert Londres, who normally wrote about social and international affairs but was following the Tour for Le Petit Parisien. Londres' piece, reproduced largely as a dialogue, appeared under the headline Les Forçats de la Route.
"You wouldn't believe that all this is about nothing more than a few jerseys. This morning, in Cherbourg, a race official came up to me and without a word, he pulled up my jersey to check that I'm not wearing two. What would you say if I pulled open your waistcoat to see if your shirt was clean? That's the way these people behave and I won't stand for it. That's what this is all about." "But what if you were wearing two jerseys?" "That's the point. If I want to, I can wear 15. What I can't do is start with two and finish with only one." "Why not?" "Because that's the rule. We don't only have to work like donkeys, we have to freeze or suffocate as well. Apparently that's an important part of the sport. So I went off to find Desgrange. 'I can't throw my jersey on the road, then?' 'No,' he said, 'you can't throw away anything provided by the organisation.' 'But this isn't the organisation's—it's mine.' "'I don't conduct arguments in the street,' he said. 'OK,' I said, 'if you're not prepared to talk about it in the street, I'm going back to bed.' "'We'll sort it all out in Brest', he said. It will definitely be sorted out in Brest, I said, because I'm quitting. And I did."
Pélissier went to his brother, Francis, told him his decision and encouraged him to do the same. Francis said that suited him because he had a bad stomach and no enthusiasm for racing. Ville said he hadn't been part of the strike but that the other two had picked him up along the road. He was too tired to go on, he said.
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...' From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..." "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece. "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.' Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."
Londres had the best colour piece he'd ever written, although Francis claimed afterwards they'd taken advantage of his gullibility by exaggerating.*

*It should be noted that the Pellissiers were know for having an odd sense of humor, some think the entire thing was a put -on.


The earliest case in cycling was 1886.

Steve B

Steve, it's been said that as long as there is the incentive to cheat, the cheaters will always stay ahead of the testing methods. We may just have to realize that there is no way to ever completely clean up baseball. If they were able to reduce drug usage, the players would find another edge. I guess it's human nature. It doesn't make things any easier. I'd love to know that everybody was on an even playing field. But it sounds like a dream at this point unfortunately.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by steve B

Stiff penalties won't stop it. I doubt much will.

A few quotes from another sport, one that began testing in the 60's, and has fairly stiff penalties. And STILL has people removed from its premier event every year.

"The top riders are obliged to be fresh each time and they can't do that without stimulants. Nobody could or ever will be able to do that because there are no such things as supermen. Doping is necessary in cycling."

Rik van Steenbergen, a top pro in the 40s and 50s

"My closets now will be empty of syringes and prohibited substances. The majority of racers resort to drug products, and those who refuse to admit it are liars."

Dietrich Thurau, many pro wins in 70s and 80s

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say 'treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone."

Jacques Anquetil, Won TDF five times in 50s and 60s

"In 1924, the legendary Pelissier brothers-noted as much for their brutal attacks on the road as their criticism of Tour organizers-abandoned the race over what they considered to be an unfair ruling. Pélissier, Francis and another rider, Maurice Ville, abandoned the Tour at Coutances in 1924 after Desgrange had not let Pélissier to take off a jersey as the sun came up. They were met in the station café by the journalist Albert Londres, who normally wrote about social and international affairs but was following the Tour for Le Petit Parisien. Londres' piece, reproduced largely as a dialogue, appeared under the headline Les Forçats de la Route.
"You wouldn't believe that all this is about nothing more than a few jerseys. This morning, in Cherbourg, a race official came up to me and without a word, he pulled up my jersey to check that I'm not wearing two. What would you say if I pulled open your waistcoat to see if your shirt was clean? That's the way these people behave and I won't stand for it. That's what this is all about." "But what if you were wearing two jerseys?" "That's the point. If I want to, I can wear 15. What I can't do is start with two and finish with only one." "Why not?" "Because that's the rule. We don't only have to work like donkeys, we have to freeze or suffocate as well. Apparently that's an important part of the sport. So I went off to find Desgrange. 'I can't throw my jersey on the road, then?' 'No,' he said, 'you can't throw away anything provided by the organisation.' 'But this isn't the organisation's—it's mine.' "'I don't conduct arguments in the street,' he said. 'OK,' I said, 'if you're not prepared to talk about it in the street, I'm going back to bed.' "'We'll sort it all out in Brest', he said. It will definitely be sorted out in Brest, I said, because I'm quitting. And I did."
Pélissier went to his brother, Francis, told him his decision and encouraged him to do the same. Francis said that suited him because he had a bad stomach and no enthusiasm for racing. Ville said he hadn't been part of the strike but that the other two had picked him up along the road. He was too tired to go on, he said.
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...' From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..." "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece. "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.' Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."
Londres had the best colour piece he'd ever written, although Francis claimed afterwards they'd taken advantage of his gullibility by exaggerating.*

*It should be noted that the Pellissiers were know for having an odd sense of humor, some think the entire thing was a put -on.


The earliest case in cycling was 1886.

Steve B

Steve, it's been said that as long as there is the incentive to cheat, the cheaters will always stay ahead of the testing methods. We may just have to realize that there is no way to ever completely clean up baseball. If they were able to reduce drug usage, the players would find another edge. I guess it's human nature. It doesn't make things any easier. I'd love to know that everybody was on an even playing field. But it sounds like a dream at this point unfortunately.

[Jcfowler6]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewe...216852651.html

Just an article.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Steve, it's been said that as long as there is the incentive to cheat, the cheaters will always stay ahead of the testing methods. We may just have to realize that there is no way to ever completely clean up baseball. If they were able to reduce drug usage, the players would find another edge. I guess it's human nature. It doesn't make things any easier. I'd love to know that everybody was on an even playing field. But it sounds like a dream at this point unfortunately.

That was pretty much my point. There will always be a way to get an edge. some legal, some not.

Many things currently banned were ok at one time, blood doping was controversial in the 80's and is banned now. (Train at altitude, have blood taken while it's rich in red cells, then just prior to competition have that blood put back in. - Instant improvement in oxygen capacity) That was relatively safe, EPO does the same thing but isn't.

The 1880's case in cycling involved a mix of cocaine, caffeine and strychnine. It apparently was neither unusual or illegal at the time.

In the 30's many athletes smoked, holding the belief that it would open up the lungs.

It's simply not stoppable no matter what penalty is involved.

That's not to say there shouldn't be penalties, WADA typically issues a 2 year suspension for the first offense.

Now if people want to retroactively take away awards and records......
Illegal substances are banned right?
And Alcohol was illegal from 1920-1933.
So I'm thinking a ton of records need to be reassessed.

Welcome our new HR record holders! Roger Connor and Gavvy Cravath. (Ok, maybe Gherig instead of Connor)

Steve B
(My edge in softball was being a swing for the fences pull hitter in BP, and a singles hitter to all fields in the game. I think it was legal, and worked great till people caught on to it.)

[BlueDevil89]

Comments from Zack Greinke on Ryan Braun this week as reported by Dylan Hernandez of the LA Times...

"The main thing is, yeah, he lied to us. He forced us to lie for him, threw people under the bus in order to help himself out and didn't care, blamed others for his mistakes and it’s just a lot of things you don’t expect from people...Everything was so convincing. He had people to blame. He seemed like a really good guy. He was a good teammate at the time. You don’t know the guys that he was pinning it on. I'm not positive, but I think everyone 100% believed him at the time. Especially the next year, he looked just as good as the year before. His numbers his whole career, Hall of Fame numbers. How could you not believe him? He was so convincing...Not even talking about the player. It’s just the person. Just the fact that he was willing to use anyone that got in his path. The closer you were to him, the more he would use you. It's just disappointing that a human being could be like that."

The players and the Players Union are finally distancing themselves from those who would cheat by using PEDs.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

So now Ryan Braun and Barry Bonds have failed the same number of drug tests. By your logic Bonds is even more innocent than Braun because he never admitted to anything.

[QUOTE=the 'stache;1161727]I'm very disappointed that Ryan used something he should not have, and whatever the suspension is (65 games, the remainder of the season, iirc), it is completely justified. What Ryan has done is an embarrassment to the game I love, the franchise I have followed since childhood, and it bothers me on a personal level. I hate that he did something against the rules, and that he has lied about it. But, I also hope at some point the truth comes out, because right now, speculation is running rampant. Media outlets are still running stories still filled with a lot of half-truths and conjecture. Things like "Braun has admitted to using PED". Nowhere has he done this. He did not admit to using PED in the statement he issued today. In fact, it was reported several times after the story first broke that he was going to be suspended not for PED, but for a banned substance, which could be one of a hundred different things.

The "his MVP should be taken away" talk is ridiculous. The MVP is a regular season award, and there is no proof whatsoever that Braun used anything before the postseason of 2011. He passed every single drug test while in the minor leagues, and every test administered from 2007 through the 2011 regular season. As for his "getting off on a technicality", no, he didn't. There are carefully established protocols for handling biological specimens used in the drug testing program, and if they are not followed, it is proper to throw that sample out, and not employ any of the testing results in furthering punitive action. Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector, and placed in a Tupperware container in his basement for two days when it was clear there were several Fed Ex locations open between the collector's home and Miller Park (including at least one that took shipments 24 hours a day). Dino Laurenzi did not follow procedure. There is no debating this. Once it was determined that proper handling requirements had not been followed, the sample should have been destroyed. Period. Any test results from the sample are in essence fruit from the poisonous tree.

I have felt from the beginning that there was a strong possibility Ryan did not use a performance enhancer, but something that would help heal the calf muscle injury he'd been suffering with for much of the 2011 season's second half. By the letter of the drug policy agreed upon by MLB and the MLBPA, it wouldn't matter, as it's still breaking the rules, but I could at least understand that, if not condone it.

Right now, I am angry, and disappointed. He could, of course, be guilty of everything he's been accused of. But absent the facts (facts like the written opinion of independent arbiter Shyam Sad), we really don't know everything that happened. He might have been cheating all along, or he might have taken something to heal, not expecting to get tested before the post season. Who knows. But this talk of Ryan Braun being a "scum bag" is a little over the top. I am sure every single one of us have done something we wish we could go back and do differently. I know I have. But Braun is not some low life. He did something stupid, for which he should absolutely serve his suspension. But human beings make mistakes, and if he asks for forgiveness, and truly regrets what he did, I for one will forgive him, and cheer for him again. I hope he's learned from his mistake. More than anything, I am glad that this is now over.[/QUOTE]