Over/Underpriced HOFers

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

Clemente never had the power numbers that Gehrig did, you are absolutely correct, but he was not that kind of player. Remember, too, that Gehrig didn't play in an era dominating by pitching. In the mid to late 60s, pitching ruled the game. Hell, in 1968, Carl Yastrzemski led the American League with a .301 average.

When you're talking about Roberto, you have to factor in more than just his hitting. Clemente was, in my opinion, the greatest defensive right fielder to ever play the game, and I don't think anybody else is close. When you combine fielding instincts, arm strength and accuracy, he's almost untouchable. Only Willie Mays has as many career Gold Gloves as Clemente's 12. As for class and character, how about giving your life trying to help others? Gehrig was dealt a cruel blow, and was graceful in fighting to the end. But Clemente volunteered to head the earthquake relief to Nicaragua. Instead of serving as a figurehead, he got on the plane, and was going to fly down their himself. He didn't just talk, he backed it up, and it cost him his life. Clemente also faced the same bigotry that Jackie Robinson did when he broke to color barrier. Clemente was discriminated against being a dark skinned hispanic. He was outspoken, and proud of his heritage. Why do you think he is still idolized in Latin America?

Both men were great baseball players, and even better men. I greatly respect Gehrig, and realize he never got the respect he deserved while playing in Ruth's shadow. But Clemente was equally great. If he'd played in New York, or Los Angeles, he'd be revered at the same level that Mickey Mantle is.

[packs]

I agree about Clemente. Crazy to think that he almost did get to play in New York and LA for the Dodgers. Wonder how he would be viewed today if he had.

[cyseymour]

Bill is spot on about Clemente. Way underrated. In fact, he is right up there with Gehrig when you adjust for the era, maybe not quite there but if you factor in the defensive abilities, then yes.

Another guy who had an epic career and died tragically was Ed Delahanty. During his prime, he was every bit as good as those other two guys, but some poor stats in his early years as a 2b man drive down his career averages.

[Leon]

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

[oldjudge]

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

[cyseymour]

Ichiro is a very, very good player. But if you adjust for era, Clemente is superior. Clemente has an OPS+ of 130 (thirty percent of league avg production) while Ichiro's OPS+ is only 112. So a significant difference there. Of course, Ichiro played in the steroid era. But he didn't have to deal with the high pitcher's mounds of the Clemente's time period. Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

"Might". If Ichiro doesn't make it into the Hall in 5 Ballots or less I will send you a t206 HOFer.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

"Might". If Ichiro doesn't make it into the Hall in 5 Ballots or less I will send you a t206 HOFer.

Thanks!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

Ridiculous. Clemente would never be an afterthought in any conversation about the position. Ichiro is a great player in his own regard, but he played in an era where offense dominated the game. Clemente did not.

From 1960 until the end of his career, 13 years (from age 25 on), Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves, 4 batting titles (and finished second two other times. He finished in the top 5 in batting 9 out of the 12 seasons he qualified), hit .330 overall and averaged 207 hits per 162 games played. This while consistently facing such greats as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins and Phil Niekro.

And that's not even considering his greatness in the field. He has 254 career assists, most in baseball history by a right fielder. Total zone runs above average by a right fielder, Clemente is #1 overall with 204. The next closest player is Al Kaline at 155. Ichiro is fifth with 109, but on a per year basis, he is way behind the Great One. Ichiro's average is 8.38. Clemente's yearly average is 11.3.

[Cardboard Junkie]

+1 What Bill said! Dave.

[oldjudge]

Ichiro spent some of his best years in Japan. Here is the comparison based on a 162 game season:

Clemente: .317, 94 runs, 16 hrs, 87 RBIs, 6 SB
Ichiro: .320, 100 runs, 9 hrs, 55 RBIs, 38 SB

Over his 18 year career Clemente won 12 gold gloves
Over his 13 year career in the US Ichiro won 10 gold gloves

Ichiro was also competing clean in an era dominated by steroids. Ichiro had the best arm in RF for most of his career and even at his advanced age still has one of the best arms in baseball.

And, since neither player was a power hitter, I have looked at the average league leading BA in their respective league during their career. The average NL league leading BA during Clemente's career was .343. The average league leading BA in the AL during Ichiro's career was .347. These are almost identical, despite the steroid affect during Ichiro's career.

[the 'stache]

How, exactly then, does Clemente become "an afterthought"?

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bender07

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

No, I think with Robinson, and Clemente, it was warranted. I think today it's a little bit more of a popularity contest.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

James, I totally get what you are saying, I too have never heard a bad word really spoken about Brooks as a human being, and I can understand his popularity, especially in Baltimore. That being said what you are saying is exactly what this thread is about, which players according to their numbers/stats/SABR/etc. are beloved beyond what they did on the field (ie "overrated" as it relates to them as ballplayers) and which players are somewhat overlooked despite gaudy numbers (ie underrated, if you will).

[tbob]

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated? As Leon mentioned, Brooksy had 16 Gold Gloves in a row at third base and was a real clutch hitter. The Wizard of Oz was a defensive gem at shortstop but how come no mention of his batting numbers while Robinson's are dissected.
Classy on and off the field, Brooks was the leader of team and rock solid his entire career.