Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[egbeachley]

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

[D. Bergin]

I wonder what they are doing to clean up these cards like this?

I admit I thought the Worsley were completely different cards for awhile.

Are they blasting the stray print marks with UV or something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

I have a great deal of admiration for the ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses who knowingly list them.

[MattyC]

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

And, I suppose it also would be nice if they didn't claim that anywhere between 2 and 5 of their grading experts didn't meticulously look at every card submitted...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

I suppose it's depends on what's actually being done to the card. If an alteration is being done in a way that can't be detected, or leaves no evidence on the card itself, I'm at a loss to determine what can be done.

[MattyC]

Why should collectors expect them to get it right far more often than they do? Because they are a for-profit, publicly traded company advertised as "professional." Not advanced hobbyists, not just very experienced, but a professional who gets paid good money to get it right. That term means a lot to me, when someone brands themselves a professional. It elevates them to a level where a high success rate is expected. Those expectations should not be created if they cannot be met, in my humble opinion.

Now no human or company is absolutely perfect, and expecting zero mistakes or missteps is unrealistic I'll be first to admit-- but it is incumbent upon a professional grading and authentication service (or at least one that wants to last and be successful) to keep pace or stay ahead of the experts on the opposite end of the table, so to speak.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure PSA and SGC are doing the best they can within the parameters of what realistically can be done for the fees they charge. But they are up against people with decades of experience in working cards who know all the tricks to avoid detection, and y'all can get on your soapboxes as much as you want but what you see is what you are going to get.