Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

To answer your question though, it's "hard" because of the amount of work that would have to go into the investigation. I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

Unfortunately I agree with most of this..

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

This is EXACTLY what it will take to break this whole thing wide open. You have to bust one of the lower level minions, put the fear of God in them to get them talking, set up a sting...bingo, bango, bongo...

[PolarBear]

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

[RCMcKenzie]

When y'all said "authorities", I thought y'all were speaking about Mr. Lemke and Barry. The earliest memories I have of buying baseball cards are flea market dealers telling me that their ex/mt Ricky Henderson rookie card is in mint condition.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

Yes, it goes in about 7 year cycles. We're overdue for a good housecleaning...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

What are you aware of? The cases I have been closest to are still in court but are getting closer. And there is almost a 100% chance there will be a/some convictions. Mastro tried to plea for 30 months and the judge wouldn't accept it at the time...this was several months ago. That case is still going on and I think a few others are sort of hinging on what happens there. I wouldn't be surprised if some more things happen too.

[Roofman4]

Very interesting thread. How does someone protect themselves from getting on the "hook" for altered / trimmed / restored cards? If you buy online, your taking your chances...correct? Would you attend shows and buy in person knowing you have the ability to closely inspect and measure the cards? I know I saw this topic in another thread, asking for the more experienced collectors to educate us novice guys. I'm all ears...