Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[Iron Horse]

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

[Iron Horse]

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

To answer your question though, it's "hard" because of the amount of work that would have to go into the investigation. I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

I don't think it's necessarily difficult to trace the items and/or prosecute someone for altering them; I think it has more to do with the priorities of the D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s...For the most part, D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s focus on crimes that have a higher profile...They're understaffed, overworked, etc, etc...Crimes like this get put on the backburner...Like I mentioned before, I think if an intern or some other lower level investigator took an interest in something like this and did a lot of the leg work, then something might get done...Other than that, it would take someone "important" to get burned for a lot of money in a major transaction before a D.A. or A.G. would take any interest...(Hope that makes sense...)...