Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[barrysloate]

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

People are not going to stop buying cards, for the reasons listed above, and others, and perhaps more importantly that many buyers aren't aware of the issue. The only thing that has potential to stop it in my opinion is the criminal justice system.

[barrysloate]

But the criminal justice system doesn't seem to want to get involved.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But the criminal justice system doesn't seem to want to get involved.

L.E. would get involved if enough people made a ruckus. They couldn't simply ignore it. It sounds like Leon has contact information for a lot of these people. All of these "contacts" have email addresses, telephone #'s, etc. where they can EASILY be contacted. Just because L.E. may occassionally monitor the board, doesn't mean they're necessarilly reading all of the threads. Thus, when one of these forgery and/or alteration issues shows up on here, someone could contact L.E. and point them in the direction of the appropriate thread.

[T206Collector]

I stopped buying PSA product of any value when I started getting trimmed cards back in holders. About 10 years ago I sent 40 PSA T206 cards graded 4-6 to be crossed over by SGC. SGC graded 30 of them, but refused to grade 10, because of minimum grade or trimming. That was a huge eye opener for me.

I live close to Parsippany, and since then I have met the good folks at SGC, including the graders, many many times. I think I would have more reservation about them if I didn't know them a little and how their process works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they have had the same 2-3 graders behind the curtain for the past decade or more. One of those guys is Bob Luce. I have had countless conversations with him at shows and at their shop about grading standards, and my concerns. These kinds of conversations go a long way toward providing confidence in their product.

My view is if you have doubts and concerns, pick up the phone. Ask to speak to someone at SGC. They will talk to you. Their customer service is excellent. Go to a show and meet the graders. It goes a long way toward providing the comfort so many are seeking.

One of my very first posts on the original Net54 about 10 years ago was about how it didn't matter what a card's actual grade was, but instead it was just what PSA said it was. The holder makes the card a liquid asset. People treat PSA graded cards like stock or currency. You know in the back of your head that the system has all sorts of issues, but it's like a pyramid scheme. Everyone is happy to be in the scheme when they're making money, but you had better have some independent confidence about your collectible if the system ever crashes.

We're going on 20ish years of this system and none of these complaints are new. Heck, it is accepted fact that the most valuable card in the world is a PSA slabbed trim job. But as long as people treat the holder as a liquid asset, then it doesn't matter if your collectible isn't what you think it is. And as long as PSA is the perceived industry standard, the system will live on.

Collectors, particularly in the internet age, will always need a third party to certify to the buyer that what the seller is selling is pretty close to what he says it is. Like buying a house, you will want to have an inspection. But the inspector may miss something. Or the inspector may be a criminal. In the end, you do the best you can do with the information that is available and make as informed a choice as possible. It's pretty much like anything in life.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

How true and there lies the problem: the vast majority of the collectors either accept it and live with it and continue to spend a lot of money, while others deny there's even a problem.

I tried very hard to get at least 4 law enforcement agencies involved and there a lot of legal hurdles. One big problem is that people outside of the hobby just don't feel the weight of the problem since there aren't any industry standards of what constitutes card doctoring as fraud as opposed to "acceptable" cleaning or repairing such as flattening bent corners or removing wrinkles. The coin industry tried to roundup a bunch of coin doctors several years back and ran into this same type of problem.

But like anything if there is a strong commitment, law enforcement can do something about it and something needs be done since it pretty much goes unchecked and all indications are that it is widespread among a significant number of dealers and there's no doubt its a multimillion dollar industry. If several of these miscreants go down hard, I'm sure it will scare off many more.

[barrysloate]

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.

The only thing you have to "enforce" is what PSA and SGC "guarantee" to collectors. As long as they reasonably adhered to their guarantee, there is not much to complain about. You'd have to find proof of a conspiracy or illicit motive. Very hard to do behind the veil of the grading room.

[conor912]

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Or, if you just have their name and who they work for, I can figure out how to get ahold of them. Thanks.

[D.P.Johnson]

There's a lot of "ifs", "ands", and "buts", in this guarantee:

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.
...

You know, I was thinking, and I know this is probably going to be unpopular, but is the so called "undetectable trim" acceptable to collectors in the hobby? I will use the analogy with to the so called "undetectable pencil erasure." If both are undetectable, did they really occur? This is both facetious and serious in a way. Does this card deserve to be in a card with a number grade? For raw collectors, does this card deserve to have a note on it that it was trimmed?

For this argument, I will present this E120 Ruth that was sold in REA a couple of years ago: Link. I don't mean to pick on Rob, because Rob is one of the best, but in a way, that's precisely why because if even the best in the hobby use these words: "The trimming is very subtle and is impossible to detect without a trained eye." In fairness to Rob, he also states that the card was rejected by PSA for trimming, and PSA will never give the card a number grade. In addition, you can infer from the description, that the consignor for this card purchased it raw before the advent of TPG's, and he was never told that this card was trimmed. Therefore, if TPG's never existed, this card would be continued to be sold raw without anyone saying that it had been trimmed in the past. So the question is that if no one can detect the trim, there is no evidence of sheet cut (like the T206 Wagner, OPC Gretzky's, etc.), similar to the undetectable pencil erasure, is it a trim? Another example I will give is this CJ Joe Jackson where no trim was detected, but it was determined that it did not meet the minimum size requirements: Link. If this card were raw and TPG's never existed, would it still be sold as not meeting Minimum Size Requirements. In the age of TPG, does it deserve to be in a numbered holder?

Back to the E120 Ruth, and you knew this was coming, but PSA did end up grading it PSA 5.5: Link. Probstein again. It was recently for sale on ebay again here: Link. You know it's the same card because of the chipping in the top right corner. I don't know if the CJ Jackson has made it to a numbered holder yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did, and I think it's just a matter of time. The submitter will say to the grader, I don't see a trim, do you? Nope. Don't you think it deserves to be in a numbered holder? Some grader is going to say yes. The question is what the hobby thinks.

[Leon]

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

Done

[ullmandds]

I think it's time to start the popcorn?!

His side of the story...or the "truth?"

[T206Collector]

Collectors' affinity for the PSA Set Registry rankings is de facto proof that collecting is driven for many by what PSA says, not what the card really is. You are collecting PSA cards, not baseball cards.