Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.

The only thing you have to "enforce" is what PSA and SGC "guarantee" to collectors. As long as they reasonably adhered to their guarantee, there is not much to complain about. You'd have to find proof of a conspiracy or illicit motive. Very hard to do behind the veil of the grading room.

[conor912]

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Or, if you just have their name and who they work for, I can figure out how to get ahold of them. Thanks.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Thanks.

I have contact information for all of them but I don't really want to put it out in public. Anyone can call them though, they are public servants. It is widely known that the FBI in Chicago is working on hobby cases of fraud. It is also known that the Secret Service in California is working on some cases in the hobby. If anyone wants to PM me or email me I will give more specifics but I don't want to have those folks deluged with calls from our board, if they aren't somewhat qualified. But again, this is America..... I am not the key holder to anything.... .

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have contact information for all of them but I don't really want to put it out in public. Anyone can call them though, they are public servants. It is widely known that the FBI in Chicago is working on hobby cases of fraud. It is also known that the Secret Service in California is working on some cases in the hobby. If anyone wants to PM me or email me I will give more specifics but I don't want to have those folks deluged with calls from our board, if they aren't somewhat qualified. But again, this is America..... I am not the key holder to anything.... .

Ok. Thanks. I'll figure it out.

[D.P.Johnson]

There's a lot of "ifs", "ands", and "buts", in this guarantee:

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.
...

You know, I was thinking, and I know this is probably going to be unpopular, but is the so called "undetectable trim" acceptable to collectors in the hobby? I will use the analogy with to the so called "undetectable pencil erasure." If both are undetectable, did they really occur? This is both facetious and serious in a way. Does this card deserve to be in a card with a number grade? For raw collectors, does this card deserve to have a note on it that it was trimmed?

For this argument, I will present this E120 Ruth that was sold in REA a couple of years ago: Link. I don't mean to pick on Rob, because Rob is one of the best, but in a way, that's precisely why because if even the best in the hobby use these words: "The trimming is very subtle and is impossible to detect without a trained eye." In fairness to Rob, he also states that the card was rejected by PSA for trimming, and PSA will never give the card a number grade. In addition, you can infer from the description, that the consignor for this card purchased it raw before the advent of TPG's, and he was never told that this card was trimmed. Therefore, if TPG's never existed, this card would be continued to be sold raw without anyone saying that it had been trimmed in the past. So the question is that if no one can detect the trim, there is no evidence of sheet cut (like the T206 Wagner, OPC Gretzky's, etc.), similar to the undetectable pencil erasure, is it a trim? Another example I will give is this CJ Joe Jackson where no trim was detected, but it was determined that it did not meet the minimum size requirements: Link. If this card were raw and TPG's never existed, would it still be sold as not meeting Minimum Size Requirements. In the age of TPG, does it deserve to be in a numbered holder?

Back to the E120 Ruth, and you knew this was coming, but PSA did end up grading it PSA 5.5: Link. Probstein again. It was recently for sale on ebay again here: Link. You know it's the same card because of the chipping in the top right corner. I don't know if the CJ Jackson has made it to a numbered holder yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did, and I think it's just a matter of time. The submitter will say to the grader, I don't see a trim, do you? Nope. Don't you think it deserves to be in a numbered holder? Some grader is going to say yes. The question is what the hobby thinks.

[Leon]

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

Done

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Done

Thanks David (you can disregard the voicemail I left for you as it was only about this)

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

I would expect that he should need some time to get his ducks in a row. There are several things he needs to address:

Bumps
Card doctoring
Shilling

Please feel free to add to that list.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I would expect that he should need some time to get his ducks in a row. There are several things he needs to address:

Bumps
Card doctoring
Shilling

Please feel free to add to that list.

He said he had something written up but I would venture to guess he wants to really go over it before he comes on here.

[Ease]

This ought to be very interesting. Like walking into a buzzsaw for him I fear.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks David (you can disregard the voicemail I left for you as it was only about this)

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

The evolution of this thread has been completely surreal.

Leon,

Are you able to disclose whether this gentleman had joined the Forum previously?...I'm just anxious to know the "details", I guess.

Thanks.

RLR

[Rich Klein]

And others. Don't we need our full names in this thread. Leon, please ensure that gets done

[T206Collector]

If the full truth would show he was not at fault, he should come clean.

If the full truth might subject him to further ridicule, he should either lie or get a lawyer before responding.

[ullmandds]

I think it's time to start the popcorn?!

His side of the story...or the "truth?"