T206 Dahlen HOF Price Impact - Seeking Opinions.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by t206hof

And 416 wins, 3508 strikeouts, 110 shutouts, 2.17 ERA speaks for itself. That is not anybody's opinion those are are his stats. (And I didn't have to go look those up, I know those by heart)

I guess you have a problem understanding context. That's OK. Go ahead and believe that Walter Johnson would strike out close to 300 batters a year in todays game and finish most of them if you want to. That's completely delusional, as shown by the fact that it never, ever happens, but go ahead and believe it if you want. The Easter Bunny is going to be coming soon. I hope he leaves you some candy.

[t206hof]

But how do you know that Johnson wouldn't do that??? You're penalizing him cause of the era that he played in. That doesn't even make sense. How about we start we start a thread and see who people on here think is a better pitcher. You can can pick anybody you want and I will take Johnson. How does that sound?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by t206hof

But how do you know that Johnson wouldn't do that??? You're penalizing him cause of the era that he played in. That doesn't even make sense. How about we start we start a thread and see who people on here think is a better pitcher. You can can pick anybody you want and I will take Johnson. How does that sound?

I'm not penalizing him at all. He was a great pitcher, probably the best in his era. But you are out of your mind if you seriously think that he would come anywhere close to posting the same numbers today as he did then. That's the issue where we appear to differ. You seem to believe they are absolutes whereas I'm pretty sure they aren't. Even if Johnson was the best pitcher in the game today, and I'm not sure that would be the case, he wouldn't come close to the numbers he had when he pitched. The way the game has progressed, that simply isn't possible.

[t206hof]

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

The old timers were unquestionably tougher. Those men worked jobs in the off season, played with sub-par or no equipment and literally went to war during their careers. Todays ball players are extremely pampered. I've had the pleasure of watching my Tigers have the most dominant starting rotation for awhile now and not have a bullpen and piss away games in the playoffs. One reason I want JV to have the start of game 7 is he's a stud but he'll go all nine innings and not give some dipsh!t the chance to blow it.

[t206hof]

Hard to not pick Matty on that. 1905 world series. 3 starts, all complete games 3-0 didn't give up a run. Pretty impressive.

[t206hof]

There should not be DH's. If you do not play the field I feel you should not hit.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would post as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

So is George Mikan the best center ever in the history of basketball? He revolutionized the position in the 1940s. His numbers, at that time, were unbelievable. He was the basketball equivalent of Babe Ruth, not just Walter Johnson. There was no one close to him until there was. Then there was Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, etc. So is Mikan the best center ever? If not, which I think has to be the answer, would you agree that the reason is that the game progresses, strategies evolve, athletes become better, training becomes more refined, nutrition is better and whatnot?

Mikan is Johnson, just in a different sport. Johnson dominated baseball when it was still a sport that was trying to evolve. You will never hear me argue that he wasn't one of the greatest pitchers ever, but you will also never hear me argue that he would do what he did then today. If your opinion is different, so be it. You certainly have the right to believe what you want. I'm not a politician, so I always just sort of thought that the opinions you espouse should be based on something that you could at least argue resembled a fact. However, if you want to believe that Walter Johnson would post the same numbers today as he did in 1912, power to you.

[t206hof]

I think Chamberlain was the best player ever, he would dominate no matter when he played. And I just feel Johnson would do the same. It was just so much harder on them back then and the great pitchers still dominated.

[bundy462]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I think Chamberlain was the best player ever, he would dominate no matter when he played. And I just feel Johnson would do the same. It was just so much harder on them back then and the great pitchers still dominated.

It's so hard to compare then and now in all sports. Thinking Wilt is the best player every is a very valid argument. Thinking he would dominate today's game, not so much.

Again, evolution of the game. Basketball is the poster child for "horrible revolution". Basketball today isn't basketball. It's guys going one-on-one on the outside and full contact mosh pitting in the paint. If Chamberlain played today, he'd be among the best players in the league, but would certainly not dominate. He would not be physically elite today as he was in his time when he had 6 inches on the average center, hell there's shooting forwards his size now (Nowitzky, Durant, etc.). The perversion of the inside game (mainly to blame on the "Shaq era") would leave Wilt beaten down physically throughout the course of the season and simply not in a position to dominate.

Again, basketball is horrible today. But, the evolution of the game makes your claim very hard to support.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts.

Deadball stars like Walter Johnson and Matty were undoubtedly great. But they also weren't pitching against any minorities. How superior would the great pitchers of today look if you removed every African-American batter (and nearly every Hispanic from the game as well) from the major leagues?

I love the Deadball era and the men who played during that time. But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Deadball stars like Walter Johnson and Matty were undoubtedly great. But they also weren't pitching against any minorities. How superior would the great pitchers of today look if you removed every African-American batter (and nearly every Hispanic from the game as well) from the major leagues?

I love the Deadball era and the men who played during that time. But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

Do you really think that there were no minorities who could have dominated the game if they were given an opportunity to play in the major leagues of the time? A huge portion of the talent pool was barred from playing in the major leagues during the Deadball era.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

Expand ethnicities and you ultimately raise the level of play. Do you think the competition and skill would increase or stay the same if you played ball with the allowance of half the world or all of it?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

The talent pool is larger but there are many more in the big leagues that also dilutes the talent. Cobb faced the same 21 starting pitchers for the entire year, now a player will face at least double that number. Every time you played the Giants in 1913 you faced Matty, Marquard and Tesreau. Guys are bigger, faster, stronger, etc. but Id like to think a guy like Cobb could play today. We have no idea how'd he'd hit a live ball his whole career. Would Cobb be one of the best in the league today? I think so.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by t206hof

But how do you know that Johnson wouldn't do that??? You're penalizing him cause of the era that he played in. That doesn't even make sense. How about we start we start a thread and see who people on here think is a better pitcher. You can can pick anybody you want and I will take Johnson. How does that sound?

If you had to take 1 pitcher to start a game that your life depended on, who would you take? There's a big difference if we are using the rules/equipment from say 1912 versus present day. I'd be hard pressed to not take Maddux...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I guess you have a problem understanding context. That's OK. Go ahead and believe that Walter Johnson would strike out close to 300 batters a year in todays game and finish most of them if you want to. That's completely delusional, as shown by the fact that it never, ever happens, but go ahead and believe it if you want. The Easter Bunny is going to be coming soon. I hope he leaves you some candy.

You mention context but refuse consider it when it comes to evaluating modern players.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

You mention context but refuse consider it when it comes to evaluating modern players.

How so?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

How so?

Sorry about that. I was getting you confused with t206hof.

[Kenny Cole]

The funny (ironic) thing about this whole discussion is that while I think Dahlen is eminently qualified, and Sherry Magee too, I would put them behind probably 10 negro leaguers if I was in charge of the selections. Among others, Grant Johnson, John Beckwith, Nip Winters, Ed Wesley, John Donaldson, Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Dick Redding, Chet Brewer, Bill Monroe and maybe even Eustequio Pedroso come to mind. Its a crime, IMO, that they aren't in. That's where the conversation should start.