Just sad. No, not sad. Pathetic.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

even when one potential buyer (LOL) has bid over 5,000 times on their auctions within the past 30 days.

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.



Bidder: i***r ( 546Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 5109
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52%
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 2657

Bidder: d***f ( 859Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4592
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 3765


Bidder: 2***e ( 6825Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 768
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 31% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 238



Bidder: 4***c ( 932Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 327
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 33% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 108

[markf31]

Now we wait for the obligatory replies of:

"I'm tired of all these type of posts"
"Nothing gets accomplished with these posts"
"No one can do anything about it, so why bother"
"You can't expect him to track ALL those listings at the same time"
"These posts are useless"
"Instead of complaining, why not pose a solution"

That doesn't even cover those individuals who attempt to make excuses for this type of rampant fraud.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by markf31

Now we wait for the obligatory replies of:

"I'm tired of all these type of posts"
"Nothing gets accomplished with these posts"
"No one can do anything about it, so why bother"
"You can't expect him to track ALL those listings at the same time"
"These posts are useless"
"Instead of complaining, why not pose a solution"

That doesn't even cover those individuals who attempt to make excuses for this type of rampant fraud.

Ha Ha...yup...here we go again...and again...

[wolf441]

The good thing is, there's the Probstein logo right on the picture when you are looking at the listings. So do like I do, just zoom right past them without a 2nd glance!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Blazzy blah.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.

Bidder: i***r ( 546Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 5109
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52%
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 2657

Bidder: d***f ( 859Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4592
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 3765


Bidder: 2***e ( 6825Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 768
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 31% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 238


Bidder: 4***c ( 932Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 327
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 33% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 108

Hopefully this response to the counting was sarcasm?

No judge, that is totally wrong, I didn't shoot him 29 times in self defense, I shot him 27 times. Big difference!!

Personally, if I ran ebay the seller and bidders would be in trouble.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hopefully this response to the counting was sarcasm?

No judge, that is totally wrong, I didn't shoot him 29 times in self defense, I shot him 27 times. Big difference!!

Personally, if I ran ebay the seller and bidders would be in trouble.

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all.

Only trying to make the point that dealing with something accurately adds credibility, in my opinion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all.

Only trying to make the point that dealing with something accurately adds credibility, in my opinion.

No doubt it's better to be accurate. Because shooting someone 27 times is much different than 29 times, right? Whether it's 5000 bids or 3700 bids wasn't the point. The egregious and fraudulent bidding patterns are the issue. Fraud is fraud, and to me retracting that many bids and bidding that often with one seller, looks like fraud to me. But I do agree in being accurate.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

No doubt it's better to be accurate. Because shooting someone 27 times is much different than 29 times, right? Whether it's 5000 bids or 3700 bids wasn't the point. The egregious and fraudulent bidding patterns are the issue. Fraud is fraud, and to me retracting that many bids and bidding that often with one seller, looks like fraud to me. But I do agree in being accurate.

I'm a real stickler when it comes to providing accurate information. In this case, I just completely flubbed it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill -- precisely.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.

You're right, I had a brain fart. That's still a hell of a lot of bids, and the sentiment is still the same.

[MattyC]

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Understood but I think these threads are good. It's good to know the dishonest (by the fact of looking the other way) sellers and shenanigans going on, on things we bid on. I snipe but still don't like to pay more due to fraud than I should have to. Or you can just ignore it.....

And I do agree about bidding what you want to and no more. I do that anyway....(usually)

[MattyC]

Leon,

To be clear, in my last post I am not making any commentary on the thread or calling posts like this whining.

I am just offering an approach that leads to less Sturm und Drang, less negative mental energy and frustration, and more happiness on a daily level for the fellow collector.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Leon,

To be clear, in my last post I am not making any commentary on the thread or calling posts like this whining.

I am just offering an approach that leads to less Sturm und Drang, less negative mental energy and frustration, and more happiness on a daily level for the fellow collector.

I very seldom get frustrated over this kind of thing. I usually get more frustrated on AH bidding that goes well beyond my meager means on things I really want (and have a sliver of a chance of obtaining).

[ullmandds]

Maybe we should just be happy for the cards...commanding such high prices...I mean don't they deserve it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

Agreed, I totally get it. I'm just content to factor everything in to my comfortable paying prices. There's reality, which needs to be lived in and faced, and then there is pining for some parallel universe in which certain daily annoyances don't exist (not saying anyone here is doing that, just pointing out a path on which I do not want to find myself).

This is not to say making all collectors aware of shilling is not a great service. It is. And knowledge is power. I just think the best thing to do with that knowledge is factor it in, understand what price it takes to acquire a desired card, and either reel that baby in and enjoy it as part of a collection, or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Agreed, I totally get it. I'm just content to factor everything in to my comfortable paying prices. There's reality, which needs to be lived in and faced, and then there is pining for some parallel universe in which certain daily annoyances don't exist (not saying anyone here is doing that, just pointing out a path on which I do not want to find myself).

This is not to say making all collectors aware of shilling is not a great service. It is. And knowledge is power. I just think the best thing to do with that knowledge is factor it in, understand what price it takes to acquire a desired card, and either reel that baby in and enjoy it as part of a collection, or not.

This is why fraud succeeds, because people (not singling you out, we are all guilty of it to some extent) just become complacent/resigned and accept fraud as part of the landscape.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is why fraud succeeds, because people (not singling you out, we are all guilty of it to some extent) just become complacent/resigned and accept fraud as part of the landscape.

I hear ya. But I don't think there's a way to ever rid the hobby or the world of fraud altogether; perhaps it's a misanthropic worldview, but I believe it is part and parcel of the human race. I think the best we can do, hobby-wise, is educate ourselves, factor in inflated prices when formulating bids, choose to abstain from bids (if one prefers), learn how to spot shilling and fake sales, etc. And one must also strike the balance between, on one hand, maintaining an awareness of and rooting out fraud, and on the other, leading a happy life-- especially within one's hobby, which is ideally a source of pleasure. If the cost of combatting fraud at the most knightly level is a default state of frothy rage or annoyance, a state that makes the hobby unenjoyable, that might not be a cost some are willing to pay. So some hobbyists may choose to adopt a more even approach of vigilance and caution that does not over-consume or cause one too much heartburn

We also have to end apartheid, for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism, and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens. . . . I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

+1

I treat every auction like it may have a hidden reserve. I have never paid more for a card than I was prepared to. And, I don't get caught up in the concern that my price expectations may be inflated by a false market created by shillers.

Having said this, I appreciate these threads, and I factor in all of this information into my bidding strategy.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Matt, I understand your thinking. In theory, if I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 on a card, I can just set an alarm on my phone to give me a "five minutes to auction end" warning, then load up my laptop, desktop computer or the Ebay app on my Windows phone, and put in my $1,000 bid right before the auction ends. And, if I get the card right at $1,000, I should be happy, as that's what I was willing to pay, right? I got the card, and nobody was able to make me exceed my budget.

Only, what if I would have gotten the card for $900, or $950 if it weren't for the shill bidder?

Four years ago, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. I was a single guy living on my own, and after getting my stock broker licenses, I got a pretty big promotion. I was making a good deal of money. So, $50 or $100 would have seemed insignificant to me. But since getting hurt, my thinking has changed. I am more mindful of wasting things now, money included. Losing $50 or $100 due to what is essentially criminal activity is completely unnecessary. When we become accepting of these kinds of losses because we didn't want to "stress out" over it, or "give it a second thought", it just enables these crooks further. What is the quotation with a seemingly endless list of variations that's attributed to Edmund Burke? Something to the effect of "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Well? If we are silent, then we're going to get more of the same.

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

My view is that you would not have gotten the card for less if shilling had been prevented, because the seller would not have listed his card in an auction in the first place. Or he would have set a hidden reserve, or a higher minimum bid.

The reason ebay is filled with BINs is because most sellers don't want to have to shill to get their prices. But they're not going to list their items as pure auctions because they are afraid of letting a clean market dictate the price of the item. A price point set by a triggered BIN has the propensity to be just as misleading as a price point set by shill bidders.

Frankly, I think a buyer has a false sense of security if he thinks when he bids in an auction that there are only bona fide bidders competing against him.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

Bill, not directed at you (I think you are spot on), but a general question / observation for others regarding the "willing to pay" argument.

A man is going to buy a pair of shoes. He knows the pair of shoes he wants and he knows they cost $100. He goes into the shoe store and they are on sale for $50.

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

I'm not sure where this is even implied, and not the point anyway. If something would have gone for less (in an auction setting), why is it ok then that it was shilled, as long as you got it for what you were "willing to pay"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify.

[MattyC]

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

There's really no mental benefit at all, Matt. You are correct. It's just that circumstances have led me to rethink a good many things.

I've always believed that there is but one immutable tenet: the only thing in life that is certain is uncertainty. Well, Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You're right, I had a brain fart. That's still a hell of a lot of bids, and the sentiment is still the same.

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by japhi

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

Hello, Matt. You're pretty new to the board, but there have been several threads over the last couple of years about Probstein's consignors shilling their own auctions. Rick was notified and did absolutely nothing about it. This was back when you could link eBay transactions by the buyer's and seller's feedback, but eBay has since decided to protect the shillers and make it nearly impossible to determine that anymore.

One shiller, Joseph M Pankiewicz, would buy cards on eBay, consign them to Rick and bid on his own cards. This was clearly evident from the bid history. This was all done by username and feedback, but again, eBay has decided they want to protect shillers and that is no longer possible. At the time, it was brought to Rick's attention, he chose to do nothing about it. Last time I looked, he still allows Panky to consign.

[japhi]

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

[Exhibitman]

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

I think there's a "deny, deflect, or ignore" step in there somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

You missed the parallel step of buying centered slabbed cards with minor flaws and "improving" them.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

While we are pointing out missed steps I'd like to highlight that that model doesn't produce any revenue without a buyer willing to pay way over historical values. As long as there are collectors that just have to have a certain card at any price there will be auctions that don't make much sense.

Anyone that has VCP access and is following certain cards know that for every shilled auction, there is some idiot pulling the trigger on a BIN at 30% over the previous sale. Which is why I don't lose any sleep over this - it's impossible for me to pay more than I'm comfortable with a card because I simply don't pay more than I am comfortable for card (or a car, dishwasher or deck reno).

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

--Profit

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by japhi

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

I agree. The hobby is ideally a source of great enjoyment, an escape from the daily stressors. If one's hobby becomes a source of anger and annoyance, then I think there's a problem. In the end, I think cards are pure and pleasurable. Cards are never snide. They never get petty or envious. They never nag or break balls. They never get fat and out of shape. Human beings, on the other hand...

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by japhi

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

I hate to say it, Matt, but if you are always paying 100% of what you've budgeted for the few baseball cards you do buy, you are participating in the BS that comes with the hobby. You do so through no fault of your own, of course, but you are still part of the viscous cycle.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I hate to say it, Matt, but if you are always paying 100% of what you've budgeted for the few baseball cards you do buy, you are participating in the BS that comes with the hobby. You do so through no fault of your own, of course, but you are still part of the viscous cycle.

Bill that guilt by association is a BS argument. I don't shill and not even sure if I've been shilled.

My point was very simple; I pay what I'm comfortable - and usually less, I only snipe and I do quite a bit of research before sniping. If there is a card I'm chasing that sells for 400 bucks in a good looking PSA 6 than I set my snipe for 400 bucks, usually less. When I win I generally win below the comparable. I lose way more auctions than I win.

Obviously this way of buying won't work on cards that only come up once a year but I don't play in that sandbox.

If you have a strategy for paying less for cards on Ebay I'm all ears.

PS. good discussion, I mostly lurk as I can't add much value to threads, which may in fact be the case with this thread as well!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by japhi

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

This thinking hurts my brain. Let's say you want a card up at auction which you are willing to pay $200 for -- and you put in such a snipe. A shill bidder puts in a bid at $199 with the next lowest bid at $50. So you end up getting the card at $200 and you're supposed to be happy? When you were just ripped off $149? Really?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This thinking hurts my brain. Let's say you want a card up at auction which you are willing to pay $200 for -- and you put in such a snipe. A shill bidder puts in a bid at $199 with the next lowest bid at $50. So you end up getting the card at $200 and you're supposed to be happy? When you were just ripped off $149? Really?

Open to any solutions you have that can save me money buying on Ebay. If you have ways I can pay $150 for a card that typically sells for $200 I'm all ears.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by japhi

Open to any solutions you have that can save me money buying on Ebay. If you have ways I can pay $150 for a card that typically sells for $200 I'm all ears.

It typically sells for $200 because it's shilled every time. Ever think that maybe your valuations are skewered because of fraud? As for a solution to get fair market value, the crooked ebay sellers with the miraculously fortuitous under bidders who never win an auction but whose bids are 95% with the sellers need to be removed. I've represented some eBay sellers who have been kicked off despite high sales. It does happen.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It typically sells for $200 because it's shilled every time. Ever think that maybe your valuations are skewered because of fraud? As for a solution to get fair market value, the crooked ebay sellers with the miraculously fortuitous under bidders who never win an auction but whose bids are 95% with the sellers need to be removed. I've represented some eBay sellers who have been kicked off despite high sales. It does happen.

The cards I follow seem to always find the market range, and I don't believe every auction is shilled. Here is a card I'm following/chasing, a c55 Vezina:

3/2/14 eBay Listing | Image rcdevil s***s Best Offer $5,200.00
6/12/13 eBay Image prewarcardcollector l***v 35 $4,901.00
1/31/12 eBay Image exchefy1 t***i Best Offer $7,000.00
1/27/12 Mile High Image 12 $5,483.52
5/2/10 REA Image 21 $5,287.50
10/14/07 eBay Image jtn2000 gomaz 24 $5,801.00
8/31/07 Mastro 29 $5,251.20

There is a pretty defined market value for this card; BIN or Auction, Ebay or AH, this is a $5200 card. Did shilling set an inflated price? Possibly, but today I'm going to have to pop around 5200 bucks to buy this card, shill or no shill.

We are in complete agreement that bid retractors are losers and Ebay should manage to it. I spend a shit ton on Ebay and never have retracted a bid, and have only returned 1 card in the last 5 years.