Thoughts on the National...

Kawika · #1 06-26-2014, 11:41 PM

Graig: Five years ago you were just bursting on the scene. Your amazingness hadn't sunk in yet. At the best of times it's a lot to expect the average show attendee to buy a 5 or 10 $K painting on impulse so it's no wonder you didn't have great sales. But the exposure to your works and the opportunity for folks to meet the artist has got to be a positive even if you don't sell many paintings. Anybody who hasn't seen your works in person is missing the better part of the experience - I just look up from my keyboard and Smokey Joe Wood is looking back at me and I am blown away every time. And you can remind Dean that the Cobb Sliding piece did sell as a result of the Cleveland National. I wasn't there but when I saw it on a post about the show I jumped on it. As for the small studies, I understand that you don't want to be a starving artist, and Dean doesn't want to be a starving agent, but to me it just cheapens things a little bit. Keep on painting masterpieces and leave the tchotchkes to Dick Perez.

Leon · #2 06-27-2014, 12:14 AM

That is a great painting!!

billyb · #3 06-27-2014, 01:07 AM

Graig,

Definitely show your paintings at the National. I would also take a look at whose signing at the National. Maybe select a couple of the top stars, get the okay from the National Organizers and ask of you could display, your painting, of the star when he is signing. The cost of the 200 smaller paintings would probably be the same as a couple larger pieces you could display.
And you have enough credibility to approach MLB about paintings done by you for the MVPs of each league. I think you are that good.
Aim high my friend, you have the talent. The smaller pictures, I would avoid selling too many of those (the 200 mentioned).

hcv123 · #4 06-27-2014, 07:58 AM

Hi Graig,

I echo much of what has been shared already, but am weighing in as someone who has never seen your work in person, is a hard core collector and not so into paintings.
1) I agree you need to decide what market you are in - high end or low end (or wherever in between) - to have the 5x7's that you use to make the "good stuff" sold as a "consequence" of making a larger fine art painting is different than painting the smaller ones trying to make sales. I agree with the comment that such a move could "cheapen" the perception of your work in the marketplace.
2) I think the number of "lead generation" and exposure comments are spot on as well. Especially looking at the product that you offer, looking to "justify" the expense of showing by "breaking even" in show sales is VERY short sighted. There would be no marketing and advertising industry if companies expected an immediate roi equal to their investment in such things. I think it would be smarter to try to demographically identify who your customers are/have been and determine if the national is a good venue to get exposure to more people that fit that demographic. If not, where are they? How do you get in front of them?
3) I think a collector like me is part of the reason you saw so few sales at the national you showed at - I have spent thousands on cards and memorabilia. I even own a couple of memorabilia connected paintings, but appreciate fine art more from a museum perspective ( I like visiting and looking at it) than owning it. While I am sure I would be wowed given all I have read about your work, it is highly unlikely that I would buy a painting. A part of that is consideration of future appreciation or resale (When I buy cards or memorabilia I know I will be able to resell one day (gain loss, etc.). If I wanted to/needed to- how quickly would I be able to resell a painting - at what level of appreciation or depreciation? It would be a MUCH smaller market and arguably greater risk of depreciation in the short term. Not to get morbid here, but haven't most of the great fine artists work appreciated after they have left this world?
4) You clearly are an AMAZING fine artist. I applaud your courage in opening a dialogue exploring ways to make a good business/living out of it. It is a very different question than the quality of the work you do.
Be well and good luck. If you end up showing I will be sure to bring my 7 year old (his first national) by so we can take in your work in person.

-Howard

timzcardz · #5 06-27-2014, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I first met Graig at the National in Cleveland and although I did not purchase anything at the show I am proud to currently own three paintings and a few studies. Having seen his work in person made it easy for me to make future purchases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

And you can remind Dean that the Cobb Sliding piece did sell as a result of the Cleveland National. I wasn't there but when I saw it on a post about the show I jumped on it.

I don't know what more could be said. It's all about targeted exposure. The direct/indirect benefit from that exposure is difficult to quantify.

A was mentioned elsewhere here, the coffee table type book that you have mentioned previously would be an ideal quick sale at The National. Autographed and personalized to collectors would be provide incredible targeted exposure. How many fellow collectors would the books sold be seen by? How many commissions would it lead to?

There are sales, and then there's marketing. For you, I would think that The National would be more about marketing . . . and marketing is about future sales.

perezfan · #6 06-27-2014, 11:30 AM

I work for a major food company who participates in dozens of trade shows every year. We rarely (if ever) sell enough product at these shows to recoup the booth fees and sample product given away.

It's all about the PR and building brand awareness. It is a long-term investment. If you look at the immediate term, and only "turning a profit", you are missing the boat. Same seems true for your situation. The Coffee Table Book signing idea is a great one. Something classy that people could easily afford... and would undoubtedly lead to future sales. I much prefer this option to selling the small studies (and potentially cheapening the "Kreindler brand").

That said... I am intrigued by the Agent/Artist relationship dynamic. Who makes the final call in the end... you or Dean? I'm pretty sure most of us are hoping it's you

Scott Garner · #7 06-27-2014, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

i work for a major food company who participates in dozens of trade shows every year. We rarely (if ever) sell enough product at these shows to recoup the booth fees and sample product given away.

It's all about the pr and building brand awareness. It is a long-term investment. If you look at the immediate term, and only "turning a profit", you are missing the boat. Same seems true for your situation. The coffee table book signing idea is a great one. Something classy that people could easily afford... And would undoubtedly lead to future sales. I much prefer this option to selling the small studies (and potentially cheapening the "kreindler brand").

That said... I am intrigued by the agent/artist relationship dynamic. Who makes the final call in the end... You or dean? I'm pretty sure most of us are hoping it's you

+100

shelly · #8 06-27-2014, 01:32 PM

If you paint it they will come and see it.

Jantz · #9 06-27-2014, 02:44 PM

Graig

If you don't spend the money on a booth at the National, you're just going to spend the money somewhere else.

Your talent should be seen and appreciated.

You said it yourself that you had a great time.

Hope to see you there. I'll buy the first round.

Jantz

GKreindler · #10 06-27-2014, 05:50 PM

Hey everyone,

Thank you all for your wonderfully thought-out replies. You've certainly given me a lot to chew on, and I seriously appreciate your candor. Now, I have to warn you, I didn't really end up editing this post or anything, so hopefully I don't sound too weird or bitter - it's definitely not my intention.

Before I jump to anything, I wanted to answer a few of the questions that some of you posed:

Matt, the issue with the prints and lithographs is a headache, as it all comes down to a lot of legal red tape which is super expensive to cut through. In essence, the paintings that I make are the safest bet for me right now, as since they're one-of-a-kind originals, I'm protected under my first amendment rights. However, if I were to make prints, gicl�es, lithographs or any other kind of reproductions of a particular piece, then I would be using it for commercial purposes. So, if I'm doing a painting of Babe Ruth, if I don't buy the permission to do so, I could be in trouble with not only the people who run the estate of Ruth (CMG), but also MLB, MLBPA, the photo service I'm using the photograph from, or any number of others. In other words, if I'm making money off of their clients, they feel as if they're entitled to a slice (which they certainly are). Securing such licenses is a VERY expensive thing to do. I remember chatting with Mickey Mantle's estate about 10 years ago, and they said that in order for me to sell prints depicting the man, they would need 25% of the royalties, 20 copies of the particular print, and around $30,000 down. And that's JUST for Mantle, for one project. MLB licenses run around $50,000 a year these days from what I've heard. It's possible that I could just do it and fly under the radar, but it's a risk I'd care not to take (and for the record, 'yes', they're PLENTY of artists out there who are doing so without permission from whomever owns the intellectual property). With that in mind, it's gotta just stay as originals for now. Though, if the right opportunity presents itself with creating reproductions, then I'll surely listen.

Lance, for starters, the book seems to be on a bit of a hold. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the holdup is on Dean's end, though I imagine it has something to do with people not returning phone calls or emails (which seems to be the trend this year). And in regards to the Feller silhouette, it was given to us by the people at Photofile. I'm not really sure why, to be honest, but when we met with their owner Chuck Singer, he gave it to us when we told him we were heading to Cleveland. I thought it was a pretty neat thing to have, so we kept it around the booth. Whether they sell them regularly or not, I'm not even sure.

Mark, in the end, I think it's up to me regarding certain decisions. Though, what's good is that Dean and I are in constant contact, and he's always concerned about where I'm going with my career, both in regards to how I feel about the journey and where I want to see myself. So in the end, if there was something that he thought we should really do that I didn't agree with, I theoretically could put the kibosh on it. But, because of our relationship, I feel like we wouldn't ever really get to a major fork that we were completely diametrically opposed to. Or at least, I hope not.

If I've forgotten to answer something, forgive me, but I think I got them all?

Now, I think you're all right about the National. The main thing is, it's a great place to meet people and just get my work in front of them. And in all honesty, that was always the most important part of it for me. That's one of the reasons why I still go today, even if I don't have a booth. Just getting to meet people and talk about similar passions is a beyond fun. And of course, the fact that I have a few good buddies to troll around the floor with and tell jokes to NEVER hurts.

But seriously, the fact is, these paintings aren't cheap, and that applies to both the studies and the full-blown ones. And some of you mentioned that it's not the kind of money and decision that is normally made on the fly. Especially at a place where 'fine art' doesn't really appear on many people's wishlists and in many cases, budget.

Howard brought up a really good point about deciding what market I'm in. And I guess when it comes down to it, that's a big problem for me. Going to an art trade-show, you know that you're setting up for people who want to buy art. In a way, a lot of them are prepared to spend the kind of money necessary to acquire whatever pieces they fall in love with, so if they see a price tag of $40,000, they're not completely shocked out of contention. But some of the issues that I have there is the subject matter. It's sad to say, but when art collectors see my work, though they might like the handling of the paint, baseball as a focus ends up being a bit kitschy to them. It's almost like if I'm not displaying a landscape or a nude then the work I'm making isn't worth the investment.

And then, if I go to a place like the National, a lot of people don't see the paintings as 'fine art,' but more of a unique collectible - something that doesn't take the place of the cards or memorabilia that they're seeking out. Some of them don't see any value in having the painting unless it's paired with something. I had a one dealer at Cleveland mention to me that the paintings were alright, but they really needed was to be framed and signed by the players to be worth the prices Dean was asking. I know that he didn't have any malice in his words or anything, but hearing that really made me think that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.

I think ideally, I'd like to be straddled in the middle. When I started doing these paintings, I just really got into the idea of bridging the gap between sports and art in a different way than others had. I feel like everybody out there creates paintings for the sole purpose of producing prints and lithographs, many of which are signed by the athletes and sold through their websites and then eventually, the secondary market. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, but to me, it almost ends up that these pieces are looked at as products and not works of art. I never wanted to feel that way about the stuff I was making myself, nor did I want others to feel the same way. I thought that having sports collectors see paintings and develop an appreciation for the medium could be a wonderful thing, no matter how rare the occasion. I feel like some people have made that jump because of me, which I'm incredibly humbled to even fathom.

But I guess this is the kind of stuff that can hopefully happen over time. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? I'd like to think that if I put my head down and keep doing what I'm doing, some good has to come out of it. And of course, a lot of this stuff needs to fall on the shoulders of Dean, as he's the brains in that department, but I can't imagine that it hurts for me to think about it. Either way, it's nice to obsess over something else besides becoming a better painter. I think.

I do like the idea of the raffle, Jack, and it's something I'll pose to Dean at some point. Granted, I would love to finish the one from the boards and call it a success before even considering it (but of course, I'm still waiting for the image). But I think it's a nice way to attract a buzz and help Dean recoup some of those immediate expenses. Also, a couple of you mentioned the ideas of approaching the organizers and auction houses too, which I also really like the idea of, so again, something to bring to Dean's attention.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to read and respond to this nutty brain fart of mine. It's VERY much appreciated.

Graig

Runscott · #11 06-27-2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

As for the small studies, I understand that you don't want to be a starving artist, and Dean doesn't want to be a starving agent, but to me it just cheapens things a little bit. Keep on painting masterpieces and leave the tchotchkes to Dick Perez.

David, your comparison to Perez' work is completely invalid - Graig's small studies are much better quality than anything Dick Perez does, and there is nothing cheap about them.

Runscott · #12 06-27-2014, 11:55 AM

Graig, I think 200 is way too many - that changes them from 'studies' to something else. I would go all-out as you did in the National 5 years ago, bringing some of the larger paintings, but also bring maybe 20-50 of the smaller studies to gauge interest in that sort of thing.

Kawika · #13 06-27-2014, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

David, your comparison to Perez' work is completely invalid - Graig's small studies are much better quality than anything Dick Perez does, and there is nothing cheap about them.

Agreed with you on the quality of Graig's works. Matter of semantics. My yiddische mama (no joke here, I really had one) referred to little incidental things as tchotchkes, no value or judgement necessarily implied. (The real crap was chazzerai, fit only for pigs).

Runscott · #14 06-27-2014, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

Agreed with you on the quality of Graig's works. Matter of semantics. My yiddische mama (no joke here, I really had one) referred to little incidental things as tchotchkes, no value or judgement necessarily implied. (The real crap was chazzerai, fit only for pigs).

I see what you mean. Perez did actually cheapen his work. The stuff he did early on;e.g-for the 'Great Moments' series, was in some cases very good, but the stuff you see in auctions now doesn't generally even resemble the players he is trying to depict. I'm sure he could do better work if he would slow down.

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