OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

First of all, I never compared Olerud to Mattingly.

Secondly, the writers were enamored with Hernandez winning a batting title - but not enough to give him the award solo. He wasn't the best player in 1979 - Dave Winfield was.

Third, I still think the Olerud/Hernandez comparison holds. High average, elite defensive 1B. Except that Olerud hit for more power and had seasons with higher average than Keith reached.

Chris, you're right. You did not compare him to Mattingly. I did.

I would also agree with you that all things considered, Winfield was the best player in the NL that season.

And I absolutely agree that the comparison holds. Though I don't think you or I could find anybody with a high degree of baseball knowledge that would put Olerud's defensive abilities above Hernandez's. John won 3 Gold Gloves. Keith won 11. Again, I always like to throw in the disclaimer that Gold Glove wins alone do not accurately measure how good somebody is defensively (you could have two Gold Glove outfielders, yet one may be clearly better than the other). I just like it in certain instances where the comparison merits consideration. Receiving 3 Gold Glove Awards means for a time you were a very good defensive player (generally speaking, not always). But winning 11 Gold Gloves means you were highly regarded as a defensive player for quite a long time. You're flying in the rarefied air when you have double digit Gold Glove Award wins.

I guess for me, the bottom line is that I think a lot of players that have been labeled as "great players" do not get the consideration they merit when it comes to the Hall of Fame. That's on the BBWAA. It's too easy to look at Mattingly and say "his career numbers don't measure up".

[clydepepper]

Bill- In comparing Olerud to Hernandez, you failed to mention the fact that Olerud played at the same time as the immortal (without the 't' ) Rafael Palmeiro, who won a gold glove while playing only 28 games on defense in 1999, then told us about Viagra and how to impress congressmen before disappearing like a ghost that no one wants to remember.

At least Hernandez did not have to contend with that.


Anyway, I always compared, at least via their beautiful swings, Olerud to Ventura.

[sniffy5]

I'm a Yankee fan on Long Island and have no problem saying that Jeter has been overly-praised by the NY press since 1996, and as a result fans celebrate him way too much, IMHO. He WAS NOT the leader of multiple championship teams, as someone said. That would be O'Neill, if anyone. (Note that his Captain designation came after Paul retired.) And he's never been a captain in any sense of the word anyway. Never sticks up for teammates in the press, never does anything to fire up teammates on the field, stayed on the sidelines during bench clearing dust ups (talking to opposing player no less!!!). Some captain! Mark Messier he is not. I guess he "leads by example." Doesn't every good player do that? I only go on about this cause his monument out there next to Ruth and Dimagg will refer to him as "The Captain." Total nonsense. Hey Mr. Intangibles, can you do something tangible, like win at least ONE batting title or ONE MVP if you are going to be labeled as the best player of your generation??

[Runscott]

This should be simple: just take the least-deserving HOF'er at each position, and find the closest matches that have been omitted. You'll almost certainly be able to find a few who were better hitters and worse fielders, or better fielders and worse hitters, or who had better careers over a shorter period of time, or who had slightly worse careers over a longer period of time. Put them all in and let the watering-down continue.

[oldjudge]

Dave Orr and Pete Browning are the two best 19th century hitters not in the Hall. Orr had a stroke after eight seasons which ended his career. Otherwise, he might be in the Hall already.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bill- In comparing Olerud to Hernandez, you failed to mention the fact that Olerud played at the same time as the immortal (without the 't' ) Rafael Palmeiro, who won a gold glove while playing only 28 games on defense in 1999, then told us about Viagra and how to impress congressmen before disappearing like a ghost that no one wants to remember.

At least Hernandez did not have to contend with that.


Anyway, I always compared, at least via their beautiful swings, Olerud to Ventura.

I never said that the Gold Glove Award was perfect. I think I referenced a few times where Jeter won the Award and didn't really deserve it. But if you research Hernandez or Mattingly, besides the hardware, it's said repeatedly that the two were considered the best defensive players at their position while they were playing. I think most of the time, the Awards are handed to the most deserving player. Sometimes they do get it wrong, though. Absolutely.