Doug Allen and John Rogers Cooperated with the Feds!

[Runscott]

I met Doug and Mark for the first time, in Cleveland last week. The crime subject never came up - just sat around drinking beer and telling stories. Later, some of us tried to figure how this could have happened. Like most in the hobby, if I find someone personable, it's tough to think of them as criminals.

I believe the answer can be found right here on Net54. We had a thread a while back that discussed whether or not it was okay for some of the big dealers to shill their own auctions, to permit shilling, or for us to bid on their items, knowing that they were shilling. If you go back and read that thread, and try to think of things from the perspective of the accused dealers, and then try to think of things from the perspective of those who defended them, as well as their right to bid in their auctions, things should make perfect sense. Doesn't make it right, but there are enough dealers and collectors who think it's okay to 'play the game', to keep 'the game' going. The Feds are the only ones who seem willing to stop it (and guys like Jeff).

[Hankphenom]

Some people are honest and some aren't, simple as that. Depends on what you think is important and how you look at the world and your place in it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I met Doug and Mark for the first time, in Cleveland last week. The crime subject never came up - just sat around drinking beer and telling stories. Later, some of us tried to figure how this could have happened. Like most in the hobby, if I find someone personable, it's tough to think of them as criminals.

I believe the answer can be found right here on Net54. We had a thread a while back that discussed whether or not it was okay for some of the big dealers to shill their own auctions, to permit shilling, or for us to bid on their items, knowing that they were shilling. If you go back and read that thread, and try to think of things from the perspective of the accused dealers, and then try to think of things from the perspective of those who defended them, as well as their right to bid in their auctions, things should make perfect sense. Doesn't make it right, but there are enough dealers and collectors who think it's okay to 'play the game', to keep 'the game' going. The Feds are the only ones who seem willing to stop it (and guys like Jeff).

And where is the answer right here on Net54 for misrepresenting memorabilia and obstructing justice?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And where is the answer right here on Net54 for misrepresenting memorabilia and obstructing justice?

I don't know - I don't have all the answers for you, but I'll keep trying

[Runscott]

Peter, the above post was done jokingly. My analogy wasn't perfect, and hopefully the ebay dealers we discussed, while clearly misrepresenting items (albeit on a much smaller scale) through doctored scans, etc., won't begin obstructing justice when the chickens come home to roost.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter, the above post was done jokingly. My analogy wasn't perfect, and hopefully the ebay dealers we discussed, while clearly misrepresenting items (albeit on a much smaller scale) through doctored scans, etc., won't begin obstructing justice when the chickens come home to roost.

If I understand you correctly Scott I agree that people's attitudes are a contributing factor, and it's disappointing more people don't take a stand and refuse to deal with people engaging in shenanigans and instead rationalize it in various ways (e.g. he never did anything to me), but I think at best it's only a partial explanation for criminal behavior.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I understand you correctly Scott I agree that people's attitudes are a contributing factor, and it's disappointing more people don't take a stand and refuse to deal with people engaging in shenanigans and instead rationalize it in various ways (e.g. he never did anything to me), but I think at best it's only a partial explanation for criminal behavior.

I recently overheard my wife, who is a psychologist by profession, talk to another psychologist regarding people such as battered wives and abused girlfriends who stay in circumstances that keep allowing themselves to be victimized and they've conditioned themselves to tolerate injury. Sadly we just learned of one longtime acquaintance who was killed by her boyfriend after a year of documented abuse. They said this type of behavior or disorder can be attributed to what's called "learned helplessness". I think that this same type of behavior is prevalent in the sportscard hobby. Collectors knowingly get fleeced and they seem to tolerate it as long as they get cards for their collection and keep coming back for more.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I think that this same type of behavior is prevalent in the sportscard hobby.

Dan, collectors aren't taking the pain because it's a comfort zone and if the crooks left they would feel lost and alone. They are taking it purely to get their stuff, and they will rationalize their behavior until the cows come home.

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

[calvindog]

Scott, I agree completely. When the Mastro fraud-related issues first popped up on Net 54 in 2007, the amount of jackass comments either protecting Mastro and Allen, refusing to admit they were defrauded or attempting to rationalize their behavior was nothing short of stunning to me. In addition, anyone who dared to criticize them -- imcluding reporters who simply reported what the Feds were doing in their investigation -- were castigated beyond belief. Mastro backers would twist themselves into pretzels to explain away the fraud, usually because those backers either conspired on crooked auctions with Doug and Bill or just desperately thought they needed Doug and Bill for some future financial purpose. Naturally, what else could Doug or Bill think about their purported "fraud" victims but that they didn't mind being abused. Even after Bill plead guilty and agreed to cooperate he STILL claimed victim status. The reaction of their useful idiot victims surely assisted in creating the delusional state Doug and Bill enjoyed.

All of these arguments from Doug now fall flat -- he actively obstructed justice in a way that rivals fixing a jury. This is no mere lying under oath to save your skin, this is much worse. I have no doubt that the judge in this case will agree with this position. This sort of obstruction doesn't happen every day and it really is shocking. Had Doug not been such an arrogant, entitled thief 90% of his problems wouldn't exist today. But Doug is Doug, just like Bill is Bill and John Rogers is John Rogers. They simply cannot tell the truth and any effort to challenge them is met with an avalanche of attacks -- some even from their hobby friends on Net 54.