Doug Allen and John Rogers Cooperated with the Feds!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I met Doug and Mark for the first time, in Cleveland last week. The crime subject never came up - just sat around drinking beer and telling stories. Later, some of us tried to figure how this could have happened. Like most in the hobby, if I find someone personable, it's tough to think of them as criminals.

I believe the answer can be found right here on Net54. We had a thread a while back that discussed whether or not it was okay for some of the big dealers to shill their own auctions, to permit shilling, or for us to bid on their items, knowing that they were shilling. If you go back and read that thread, and try to think of things from the perspective of the accused dealers, and then try to think of things from the perspective of those who defended them, as well as their right to bid in their auctions, things should make perfect sense. Doesn't make it right, but there are enough dealers and collectors who think it's okay to 'play the game', to keep 'the game' going. The Feds are the only ones who seem willing to stop it (and guys like Jeff).

And where is the answer right here on Net54 for misrepresenting memorabilia and obstructing justice?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And where is the answer right here on Net54 for misrepresenting memorabilia and obstructing justice?

I don't know - I don't have all the answers for you, but I'll keep trying

[Runscott]

Peter, the above post was done jokingly. My analogy wasn't perfect, and hopefully the ebay dealers we discussed, while clearly misrepresenting items (albeit on a much smaller scale) through doctored scans, etc., won't begin obstructing justice when the chickens come home to roost.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter, the above post was done jokingly. My analogy wasn't perfect, and hopefully the ebay dealers we discussed, while clearly misrepresenting items (albeit on a much smaller scale) through doctored scans, etc., won't begin obstructing justice when the chickens come home to roost.

If I understand you correctly Scott I agree that people's attitudes are a contributing factor, and it's disappointing more people don't take a stand and refuse to deal with people engaging in shenanigans and instead rationalize it in various ways (e.g. he never did anything to me), but I think at best it's only a partial explanation for criminal behavior.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I understand you correctly Scott I agree that people's attitudes are a contributing factor, and it's disappointing more people don't take a stand and refuse to deal with people engaging in shenanigans and instead rationalize it in various ways (e.g. he never did anything to me), but I think at best it's only a partial explanation for criminal behavior.

I recently overheard my wife, who is a psychologist by profession, talk to another psychologist regarding people such as battered wives and abused girlfriends who stay in circumstances that keep allowing themselves to be victimized and they've conditioned themselves to tolerate injury. Sadly we just learned of one longtime acquaintance who was killed by her boyfriend after a year of documented abuse. They said this type of behavior or disorder can be attributed to what's called "learned helplessness". I think that this same type of behavior is prevalent in the sportscard hobby. Collectors knowingly get fleeced and they seem to tolerate it as long as they get cards for their collection and keep coming back for more.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I think that this same type of behavior is prevalent in the sportscard hobby.

Dan, collectors aren't taking the pain because it's a comfort zone and if the crooks left they would feel lost and alone. They are taking it purely to get their stuff, and they will rationalize their behavior until the cows come home.

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh, Al Qaeda is running that auction? Well, I didn't know anyone who was in 9-11, and if I don't bid someone else will, and I won't bid any more than I think the card was worth. And thanks for the catalog, Ayman.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Dan, collectors aren't taking the pain because it's a comfort zone and if the crooks left they would feel lost and alone. They are taking it purely to get their stuff, and they will rationalize their behavior until the cows come home.

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

No doubt that's a strong factor in all of this madness.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

Call me naive, but I believe there are more honest auction houses and collectors out there than those committing obstruction to justice,fraud and shilling. I believe it is greed and a disrespect for laws that causes a few individuals and AH's to engage in criminal activity rather than some rationalization that causes these issues which harm the hobby. I find it hard to accept such cause and effect and believe any AH who engages in this type of criminal behavior own the repercussions of their behavior and placing blame anywhere else is misguided.
I would never bid in a Legendary Auction.There is no piece of paper I need that would change that.
Thankfully there are plenty of great auction houses that don't accept this type of rationalization. I hope nobody takes offense with this opinion.
Paul C.