Winston and JSA

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

It just seems like people have issues with the service itself, as good or bad as it might be.

This thread has nothing to do with that, nor did the ESPN report this morning, the link I posted, or anything else I read about this issue. It was about Winston, the submitter and JSA accepting them. If you think JSA was okay in accepting over 900 submissions of two item types, from a single submitter of a single college athlete's items, knowing from the Gurley experience that Winston would likely be in big trouble if caught, then fine.

If you want to argue about TPA services then please start another thread.

[itjclarke]

It's late, I'm tired and didn't read link.. but I definitely care about this and similar topics.

IMO it's ridiculous these guys cannot profit from their own signatures and/or their own names. Many of these guys (see names from the past--- Heath Shuler, Tim Tebow, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer... and very likely Johnny Manziel) will never have the opportunity to capitalize on their fame/popularity when it's at its peak in college. To those who argue- "they'll just get paid in the NFL", several college stars fail to ever make NFL rosters (Eric Crouch, Jason White, etc), and others who make NFL rosters typically have short lived careers and lack guaranteed contracts. It seems a joke the NCAA, the schools, the networks, gambling operations, memorabelia dealers, video game companies (props to Ed O'Bannon), anybody and everybody can make money off players and players' names, while the player cannot. If you don't want these guy paid while in school, then stick it in a fund/trust that the player can access once he leaves school, perhaps with partial payouts if he leaves early and incentives if he stays through graduation.

IMO the NCAA and NFL are neck and neck for the most evil, and hypocritical entities in US sports. I'm guilty of watching both, so I guess I'm a little hypocritical myself, but oh well.

[autograf]

Clearly JSA is in it solely for the money with no regard to the eligibility of ANY athlete. Guess I don't understand why a submitter had to have them done NOW which could lead someone to the assumption (rightly so) that he did a mass signing with the intent they would be sold which should invalidate his ineligibility. Manziel got away with something similar if I'm not mistaken. Not sure why they wouldn't have been submitted right after a bowl game which would have saved everyone a little headache.............

And I agree with Ian that they SHOULD be able to profit somewhat off their signatures, likenesses and/or names. It's their property, not that of the university. Granted they are getting an education which should somehow be measured against all of it, but there's too much money going into too few people's hands in the whole mess.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Tom and Ian, I agree 100%. Stupid as it is, that is currently the rule. The dealer that set this up and undermined the NCAA and the athlete should be punished if possible, but I don't know if there is much of a rule against it. I know David mentioned it earlier, but I guess I don't see how the NCAA would have any pull over someone not under their umbrella, IE: dealer.

In regards to your post Scott, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't really see why an authentication company should be in the business of holding a Florida dealer accountable for an NCAA rule. I see it as black and white, not blaming someone (JSA) for someone else's (insert dealer name) method of obtaining inventory. To do so makes an assumption that they don't really have any right to ask about. Bottom line, JSA's job is to evaluate a signature not make judgements on people. I guess that's your job

[packs]

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

and a BIG +1

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Or more inline with our collecting interests - West Point used to make a set of cards of the football team every year. Usually small, like 9 cards, maybe a few more. Any proceeds went to charity. They had to stop when the NCAA ruled that they couldn't use the players images without paying them, and that the players couldn't be paid. So for a rule that really only has meaning for a handful of players in big programs everyone lost - 9 guys who would never even have a shot at being drafted couldn't have a card, the fans couldn't get them, and the charity was shut out. (Maybe not the charity, I think the donation is still done, but the added publicity was lost)
An odd situation since everyone there is essentially on scholarship, and sort of technically employed, with a mostly guaranteed job after graduation.

Btw - those are pretty tough sets. I don't recall exactly, but they were stadium only, and perhaps one per ticket.

Steve B

[packs]

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

Meant to post earlier but tied up at work. This argument drives me crazy... basically saying-- you already get this, so you can't have anything else, regardless of whether you're worth it or not. Tim Tebow by some accounts was worth over $1B to the university, NCAA and CBS/etc. He can't see any of that??? even if he's just signing his own name???? or appearing at a football camp or speaking function???? Are you kidding???

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

Separately, the time they put in year round is probably worth close to, maybe even more than that $40K scholarship money (or maybe $10K-$15K at a public school) if they were to be working a normal job. I went to a smallish IAA school (CP SLO) and kicked around the idea of trying to walk on for my sophomore year. As it was, I was a Mech Eng student, taking 16-18 units, and just couldn't bring myself to get up each morning in the winter for 6am workouts, just to have a shot to try out in the Spring. It's crazy, and I have total respect for guys that can do it. 6am work outs, Spring ball, summer ball/work outs, double days, the season... then start right back over again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

[drcy]

For all JSA knew, the autographs were signed for a university sponsored charity.

[Runscott]

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