J.J. Clarke's Nickname

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Historians and documentarians should acknowledge Clarke's nickname, and Charles Bender's nickname, etc. But that does not mean we should perpetuate that insult in casual conversations or discussions of the player's cards.

PSA is not alone at fault -- I've seen J.J. Clarke's nickname used quite frequently even in casual conversation on this board -- but I think it is beyond justification that PSA puts "Nig" on the third line of the label on his cards. The T206 card refers to him as J.J. Clarke (which is interesting in its own right since most T206 cards simply list last name and team). Why must PSA perpetuate that odious nickname when even the card makes no reference to it?

In all do respect what is racism ? It's just people trying to act out and make something out of nothing to me. I know this can get quite heated so I'll leave it alone at that. That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

This world has become way too sensitive. This is dealing with a players nickname way back when. We're not directly calling anybody that by saying his nickname are we ? And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

I also don't feel as though we should have to point out that we don't agree with what was done and said back then because fact is it was back then. WE didn't do it and WE aren't going around saying nor calling people that now. Over sensitive world but that's just my un-popular opinion. I know that I will now be stoned.

I will say that I suddenly have an itch to get a JJ Clarke t206 with his nickname on it though.

[HexsHeroes]

.

I suspect J.J. Clarke had had some degree of acceptance of his nickname.
That simple opinion is based solely on the handful or two of autographed items
I have encountered (including two of my own), signed by J.J. Clarke, that
nearly all include his nickname.

This is not a "thing of the past". I drive by "N***** Creek" everyday on my way to work. Look it up, "N-word Creek, Kittitas County Washington". Washington State Department of Transportation replaces the sign every time it is stolen.

While the name for the Creek has it's roots in 1890's, even then editorials were written in the newspaper that indicated the name should be changed. It's been 120 years, still nothing. Signs still there. Two years ago, there was an attempt to change it to MacPherson Creek or something, but it never took and the sign remains.

People like to bury the past, or say.... "oh that was just the times", but wake up! Yes it happened yesterday, still happens today, and unless something is done to address it, it will probably happen tomorrow. I don't think it is "overly sensitive" to address wrongs past or present.

[packs]

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

I agree that PSA shouldn't but general conversation I have no problem with it. The reason I agree because I haven't seen any nicknames of other players on a PSA slab so why JJ Clarkes ?

[z28jd]

How many people think Three-Fingers Brown or One Arm Daily are acceptable nicknames? The only reason those nicknames from back then acceptable now is because that's how they were referred to during the time. If people want to ignore those names based on what it means, we all still know who J.J. Clarke is, so no big deal calling him that too. The nickname tells a story of the time, just like players being called Deacon or Lady.

BTW, Clarke is one of ten MLB players that went by that nickname, so he isn't an isolated case.

[packs]

But what is the valid argument for perpetuating the nickname for anyone? You can say that it is a reflection of the time, and that is fair. But how is that a valid reason for perpetuating it? It's clearly a dig at Clarke and can only be seen as derogatory. PSA and anyone else can just use his given name. The card says J.J. Clarke.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

PSA labels the cards the way they are cataloged.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Pat R

PSA labels the cards the way they are cataloged.

I assume you are referring to the ACC?

I would imagine SGC follows the same catalog in labeling variations and errors. But somehow SGC is smart enough to make an editorial decision and not include Clarke's nickname on their label.

The "that's how we've always done it" argument is not an excuse for PSA or BVG.

[nolemmings]

No he's not referring to the ACC, which would not catalog individual cards. I suspect he's referring to the price guides or online checklists, in which, BTW, some also list Nig Cuppy as part of the Just So set.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

This world has become way too sensitive.

Tell that to people who continue to suffer the misfortunes of racism in our world. There are billions of people who would disagree.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

It is quite clearly racist without someone else having to read between the lines. After all it was based, indisputably, on his supposedly darker-colored skin. Not much room for interpretation there.

I don't think a single person on this board or in the card collecting business is racist, although there is no doubt such racism still exists. That is not my point. I am merely wondering why we can't let that nickname go -- other than when discussing that player in his historical context. I don't need PSA or anyone to remind me of his nickname and find it absurd that they put that on his flip.

[Joshchisox08]

[QUOTE=arc2q;1404043]You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Yes I imply that it exists if we turn the word into something. Perhaps I had a poor choice of words. I just see it as a nickname to a player, nothing more.

Someone else may see it as racist and start labeling it and go on a rant about it being racist.

My opinion is the person ranting about it being racist is keeping the racism alive. Just mentioning this players nickname to me doesn't make anyone sound racist to myself. It's just that a nickname. Especially the tone of their voice (though hard to tell in text online).

The word is only racist to those who think it is. I myself don't think that it is.

[packs]

Come on man it is well known that he was dubbed "Nig" by other people because they thought his skin was dark. It is not some innocent nickname. It is inherently racist and carries only racist overtones.

The nickname is there forever. But why does PSA need to put it on the flip? His T206 says J.J. Clarke.

[boneheadandrube]

I see Jap Barbeau waving his arms for attention in the background. Next time anyone submits a J.J. please ask for the flip to read "Toby", maybe you can sell it for a premium as a variation.

[deucetwins]

Large Ass Herzog is enjoying this thread.

[z28jd]

I think the logical explanation for "J.J." being on the card is that Josh Clarke was his teammate in 1909, so either Clarke or J. Clarke wouldn't have told them apart. There are no nicknames on any of the cards, so I don't know why he would be different. PSA labels the cards how people are best known and since no one 106 years ago was PC, we have strange nicknames from the set you wouldn't hear now. You can't change how a person WAS known 100+ years after the fact.

BTW, if people want to get technical about nicknames, I think Mordecai Brown was better known as Miner Brown back then, because that is how he is often referred to in the papers. At least that is what I've seen from reading too many newspapers from that era. Not sure when Three Fingers became his accepted name, but it could just be because it stands out more than "Miner", but just like One Arm Daily and all the players nicknamed Dummy, they were being made fun of for their handicap.

I don't think anyone should try to change them now since now it isn't accepted behavior, that would just be lying to yourself about the past.

[trdcrdkid]

No nicknames on any of the cards, you say?