Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is lame beyond belief. So you think they are saying, it's unacceptable to alter a card only if you leave evidence that it was altered? That is one of the most absurd things I ever have read. No, David, they are saying the practice is unacceptable. Now they might screw up and miss the evidence, or they might not have equipment sophisticated enough to detect the evidence, but that sure as hell does not mean really good alteration is acceptable.

Do you really think if I have a card with wax residue on the front and I clean it with a solution that can't be detected and doesn't alter the stock in any way, that PSA really gives a crap???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Until they change their public standards, David, I will take them at face value.

[benjulmag]

The logical extension of the argument that it is okay to alter cards if the alteration is undetectable is that it would also be okay to CREATE a card if the creation is undetectable. So if hypothetically the original printing plate of the T206 Wagner is someday found, and if I can find period paper and period dyes that forensically test and look identical how a "real" Wagner would test and look, it is okay that I just created a $3 million plus card?

So let's say this happens and it gets slabbed a 9. The overjoyed buyer, having no knowledge of what happened (because after all I am the only person who knows what went on), would be totally cool if I should later divulge what happened? Don't you think anyone in that position would be outraged, feeling he/she had been defrauded and that such a thing should not be allowed to take place in the hobby?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The logical extension of the argument that it is okay to alter cards...

I didn't quote your enitre post because we can stop right there. That is where we disagree. To me, soaking a card is not altering it. If you think it is, you need to go look up the word alter in the dictionary. After that, if you still think soaking a card is a form of alteration, then we'll just have to disagree.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, do you disagree with Steve B. that even soaking in water is detectable (as I understood him) if one looks hard enough with good enough equipment?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I didn't quote your enitre post because we can stop right there. That is where we disagree. To me, soaking a card is not altering it. If you think it is, you need to go look up the word alter in the dictionary. After that, if you still think soaking a card is a form of alteration, then we'll just have to disagree.

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, IMO you are altering a card. And if the hobby feels it is okay to sell such "altered" cards without disclosure, knowing it will not be detected by TPG, then we can assume the practice will become widespread. The end result will be a substantial increase in the pop reports of higher-graded cards, resulting in a significant price reduction.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

No. I consider that an alteration.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So which chemicals, in your opinion, do not change anything about a card?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

............No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

Putting aside the question whether a chemical that does not change the look, feel or smell is an alteration, it none of those things are taking place, then why on earth is someone willing to pay somebody to apply to apply such a chemical?