Greatest of all time

[the 'stache]

Son of a ....

Completely forgot about Napolean Lajoie. I would also like to add Tris Speaker to my ever expanding list. Speaker had a .345 career average, and (if the numbers are accurate) struck out only 394 times in 11,992 plate appearances. That's pretty exceptional, even for the pre-Ruth era.

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

[chaddurbin]

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Ken Griffey Jr. ( hopeless Seattle fan)

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

Interesting point come to think of it, although probably not where you were intending to point. That represents an improvement of 62 strikeouts per year over his age 36, 37, 38, and 39 seasons, starting in 1987. Otherwise he hadn't led the league in strikeouts since he was 32 and facing DHs instead of pitchers. Then at the age of 42 he threw over 300 strikeouts for the first time since age 30. Specifically, his strikeout total was 2.35 standard deviations better than his numbers in the intervening years. That's just ludicrous.

But of course, you'd expect violent outbursts in someone who was using steroids to the extent required to achieve such an improvement in middle-age.




And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.




I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.

LOL, fine gentlemen indeed.

[e107collector]

Top 10:

(1) Ruth
(2) Cobb
(3) Gehrig
(4) Williams
(5) Shoeless Joe
(6) Mantle
(7) Walter Johnson
(8) Christy Mathewson
(9) Cy Young
(10) Honus Wagner

[brewing]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by brewing

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

There was nothing "reputed" about the greatness of Koufax--I saw it as it occurred--other than the length of time it took him to get to that point, and its premature end. He routinely threw an upper '90's fastball that would hop at the end (due to backspin exerting its full effect when the ball's forward impetus began to decline sufficiently, much like the drives some golfers hit), like the one DeGrom of the Mets threw to Vogt in the All-Star Game, starting at the waist and ending up at shoulder level, and a 12 to 6 curve that he always telegraphed, but few could still hit at all. Agree wholeheartedly that Pedro was fantastic!

Great thread,

Larry

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brewing

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

What pitcher has won 3 unanimous Cy Youngs in 4 years?
What pitcher won a MVP and was runner up twice in a 4 year period?
What pitcher won 3 pitching triple crowns in 4 years?
What pitcher won 2 World Series MVPs in that same 4 year period?
What pitcher threw 2 shutouts in 3 days to clich a world championship?
What pitcher threw a perfect game and 3 no hitters in 4 years?
Reputed is the wrong word, unparalleled is the word you were looking for.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by rats60

Reputed is the wrong word, unparalleled is the word you were looking for.

No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either.

I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

Yes, doesn't Mays have the record of least strikeouts batting left handed of all the 500+ home run hitters?

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

I'd really have to take a closer look but for me, he'd be pretty far down the list (in comparison here ... I'm saying he wouldn't be in my top 20 or so if we're including pitchers). As you mention, he was a stolen base threat and a very good defender, but only for a relatively small part of his career. Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams, but he'd rank behind a lot of guys that simply did more for longer stretches of time. So many great players that didn't make my top five (i.e. Stan Musial) fit that category.

The things that amaze me are that he was so much better than everyone else in his generation and that he was hitting over .320 still at the age of 41. He was still an above average hitter that late into his career. Nothing but respect for that.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

I'd really have to take a closer look but for me, he'd be pretty far down the list (in comparison here ... I'm saying he wouldn't be in my top 20 or so if we're including pitchers). As you mention, he was a stolen base threat and a very good defender, but only for a relatively small part of his career. Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams, but he'd rank behind a lot of guys that simply did more for longer stretches of time. So many great players that didn't make my top five (i.e. Stan Musial) fit that category.

The things that amaze me are that he was so much better than everyone else in his generation and that he was hitting over .320 still at the age of 41. He was still an above average hitter that late into his career. Nothing but respect for that.

Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams? Easily a better hitter than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Schmidt, and Boggs? Only if singles count for more than home runs.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams? Easily a better hitter than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Schmidt, and Boggs? Only if singles count for more than home runs.

I put Bonds ahead of him on my all-time player list (and would list several of those guys above him as well). But they all fall short for me in terms of comparing their overall hitting to Gwynn.

Gwynn, IMO, is far more than a singles hitter. He had more (other than Bonds, significantly more) triples than anyone in that group and his doubles stack up pretty favorably against most, too - in fact, he has more than Schmidt and AROD (for now).

The only people on that list even close to him in batting average (to me, probably the top criteria) were Pujols and Boggs. Boggs had as little pop in his bat as he did and while Pujols is a career .315 hitter now, that number is dropping by the day...he hasn't hit that well since 2009 and he could play for another five years or so.

And when you consider that Gwynn never struck out more than 40 times in a season, he's an easy pick for me. If you factor in things like strikeouts and batting titles, I'd take him over anyone else.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

I put Bonds ahead of him on my all-time player list (and would list several of those guys above him as well). But they all fall short for me in terms of comparing their overall hitting to Gwynn.

What you're saying is that if Gwynn had been equal to Bonds on defense and on the basepaths, without otherwise changing anything, Gwynn would easily have been the better player overall.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What you're saying is that if Gwynn had been equal to Bonds on defense and on the basepaths, without otherwise changing anything, Gwynn would easily have been the better player overall.

Not at all - Bonds was leaps and bounds better than him as a power hitter and that counts for a lot if you're talking about him being a better player. Bonds is a better power hitter, was better defensively, and a better base stealer - you add it all up and he's a better player.

Bonds was the better power hitter, but Gwynn, for me, is a better hitter overall when you factor in the things I mentioned. Hit for a much better average, struck out less, won batting title after batting title, and was still hitting well over .300 into his 40s.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Not at all - Bonds was leaps and bounds better than him as a power hitter and that counts for a lot if you're talking about him being a better player. Bonds is a better power hitter, was better defensively, and a better base stealer - you add it all up and he's a better player.

Bonds was the better power hitter, but Gwynn, for me, is a better hitter overall when you factor in the things I mentioned. Hit for a much better average, struck out less, won batting title after batting title, and was still hitting well over .300 into his 40s.

+ 1

Gwynn get's no respect. Power is overrated. Gwynn hit a HR in the WS against the Yankees. Bonds is a cheating a$$h0le. And no you don't know exactly when he started roiding up and no he WASN'T a HOF'er before the Roids because you don't know when he started, fact is it doesn't matter. He cheated. To quote Hawk "He Gone".

I guess that yeah Gwynn was a nicer and better human being than Bonds. Hitting he WAS a better hitter. He like Cobb had a science to hitting Cobb sought out his advantages in players weaknesses. Gwynn did the same while using recordings of at bats and making it all about the thought process of hitting. If people were going to give him the Gwynn hole in between SS and 3B why wouldn't he keep attacking ??? Boring sure if you're too worried about Home Runs.

Don't get me wrong who doesn't like a HR but to overall hitting, and a guy who only sniffed a .330 average once in his so called "clean years" proves that Gwynn was a smarter/better hitter. He wasn't worried about Home Runs. Nor should he, he knew what type of player/hitter he was. When it isn't broken don't fix it.

Bonds got jealous of McGwire and then that's when he supposedly started juicing. He took an unfair advantage whether or not you view it as one it is a debatable subject in it's own. But MLB sees it as an unfair advantage. Therefore IMO he shouldn't even be a contender to be considered greatest player.

He is the greatest of something but I won't say that out loud on here. Not going to get in trouble again.

P.S. Next thing I'll see is someone claiming Clemens was the greatest pitcher ever

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

And when you consider that Gwynn never struck out more than 40 times in a season, he's an easy pick for me. If you factor in things like strikeouts and batting titles, I'd take him over anyone else.

Wow! Wow!

Isn't that like saying if you factor in SB's and runs scored (runs and run prevention being the most important things), then Rickey Henderson is the greatest baseball player of All Time?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Son of a ....

Completely forgot about Napolean Lajoie. I would also like to add Tris Speaker to my ever expanding list. Speaker had a .345 career average, and (if the numbers are accurate) struck out only 394 times in 11,992 plate appearances. That's pretty exceptional, even for the pre-Ruth era.

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

Just read a great article comparing Gywnn, Boggs, and Cal Ripken. It took into account offence and defense with a bunch of stats I know nothing about. For their careers it had Boggs as #1, Ripken as #2 and Gwynn ranked 3rd. I would personally rank them the same.