Bill Mastro -- What He Really Thinks of His Hobby Friends

[SMPEP]

But he's right on one thing - there is rampant fraud (trimming, alteration, cutting of sheets) in high grade cards. I seriously don't understand why anyone wants them. I see a PSA 8, 9, 10 and think - fraud. Either it's a doctored card or a grade given to the favorite insiders of PSA/SGC.

The market place dictates the prices. I just don't understand why deep pocket collectors are willing to pay a premium for a card that is almost certainly a lie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

But he's right on one thing - there is rampant fraud (trimming, alteration, cutting of sheets) in high grade cards. I seriously don't understand why anyone wants them. I see a PSA 8, 9, 10 and think - fraud. Either it's a doctored card or a grade given to the favorite insiders of PSA/SGC.

The market place dictates the prices. I just don't understand why deep pocket collectors are willing to pay a premium for a card that is almost certainly a lie.

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

[SMPEP]

I think you're right Peter. But I don't get #1 (you should always know what you're buying - especially if you spend that kind of money) and #3 (there are other things you can buy for your ego - and to my mind, many of those are WAY more impressive than owning a psa 10 Brett rc versus owning a PSA 7 Brett rc).

I think #4 (the investment point) is a self-fulling myth.

Everyone on this board is telling everyone they meet - buy the nicest conditioned card you can find because you'll make money when you resell it. I get it. The dealers have sold this line for a long time - because they have to make a profit so they can eat. And it has worked for them because they have always found the greater fool. But why deep-pocketed people fall for this line is strange to me. Essentially they are selling a ponzi scheme. Yes, you make money up until the point comes that the greater fool/new "investor" cannot be found. And it will only take the departure of a few deep-pockets to bring it crashing down on the last card holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's the same reason people fall for all the fake game-used crap. They WANT to believe it's real. So critical thinking they might apply in other areas of life is out the window. Card doctors and their dealer enablers figured out this psychology long ago.

Re 3, I can only refer you to the set registry, if you want to understand ego.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

I think you hit the nail precisely on the head, Peter--absolutely right on!

Best wishes,

Larry

[Rickyy]

I guess the concept of materiality in this case is immaterial.

Ricky Y

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

I'll second that as a spot-on summation of the problem Peter.

The credulity of these elite collectors has baffled me to no end. I've had some very engaging discussions with some very well-known, highly intelligent and wealthy collectors from 2007 to 2010 and they either don't seem to see a problem with PSA grading altered cards or they think that PSA get's it right 99.9% of the time. In turn they think I'm completely mistaken or I'm a malcontent with an ax to grind. The most disturbing are the people that don't care if the card is altered - as long as it has a grade. There has to be some sort of psychological disorder that sustains these people.

Even more disturbing in all of this is how PSA walks away relatively unscathed by these horrific sandals. For the few like me that departed from PSA in total disgust, there's always others entering in the hobby to take my place.

At what point does law enforcement step in and say clean up your act or we will shut you down since your service is being used to systematically defraud a lot of people?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

and yet if a new grading company wants to start, everyone says to stay with PSA and would be crazy to send cards to any upstart... (though if there are clear grading issues already for the upstart I understand, I am just talking generally)

[wonkaticket]

The new Mastro inspired motivational posters....

[calvindog]

Lolololololol

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and yet if a new grading company wants to start, everyone says to stay with PSA and would be crazy to send cards to any upstart... (though if there are clear grading issues already for the upstart I understand, I am just talking generally)

yep, they complain about it (or at least know the problem exists), but dont want anyone else to compete.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

A virtual Plastic Pee Pee Measuring Contest of sorts.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

Excellent analogy. There does seem to be a lot of similarities between some high-profile collectors and pugilists whose heads have been pummeled into punch-drunk numbness.

[glynparson]

What upstart without tons of skeletons has been ripped? I do not know of one that has been opened that does not personally raise red flags with me. Sometimes it is not the message being attacked but who the message is about. Sorry I personally have no faith in the graders at the company mentioned in the other thread. Yes less faith than i have in SGC or PSA graders, far less. Yes I know they aren't perfect either and would never feel they were right if i disagreed with them. I trust my opinion over any of theirs on items i am very familiar with. I would trust your honest opinion on many boxing autos over theirs but they are still better than the upstarts, at least those i am aware of from the past 5 -10 years.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by glynparson

What upstart without tons of skeletons has been ripped? I do not know of one that has been opened that does not personally raise red flags with me. Sometimes it is not the message being attacked but who the message is about. Sorry I personally have no faith in the graders at the company mentioned in the other thread. Yes less faith than i have in SGC or PSA graders, far less. Yes I know they aren't perfect either and would never feel they were right if i disagreed with them. I trust my opinion over any of theirs on items i am very familiar with. I would trust your honest opinion on many boxing autos over theirs but they are still better than the upstarts, at least those i am aware of from the past 5 -10 years.

I am an upstart, are they better than me?