Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

Joshchisox08 · #1 12-27-2015, 05:21 PM

Great topic Kevin. Surprised there isn't many NY fans pushing for Matty here. Though the Boston ones seem to be making hair brain theories as usual. WAJO no contest. If Johnson pitched on the Giants instead of Matty who knows how many more wins he would have had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

Pedro ???????? Token the refer I see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So if MLB came out with a Doc Gooden award now, that he would make a thread like this 100 years from now?

Cy Young with the length of his career along with the average amount of innings pitched per game, with many complete games should always been the discussion. He just shouldn't bein the discussion because some committee back in the day gave him an award.

I think that is what he is saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

CMIZ5290 · #2 12-27-2015, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Great topic Kevin. Surprised there isn't many NY fans pushing for Matty here. Though the Boston ones seem to be making hair brain theories as usual. WAJO no contest. If Johnson pitched on the Giants instead of Matty who knows how many more wins he would have had.

Pedro ???????? Token the refer I see.

I think that is what he is saying.

I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

Thanks Josh...My vote would indeed go for Matty....

Tabe · #3 12-27-2015, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

Knocking Pedro for having 219 wins when he has 54 more than Sandy? Pedro's career ERA+ was 154. Sandy's was 131. Pedro had FIVE seasons with an ERA+ of 200 or higher, with his best being 291. Sandy had none. Sandy's best would be (barely) Pedro's sixth-best. Sandy also benefited greatly from pitching in Dodger Stadium in the 60s, perhaps the greatest pitcher's park of all-time. His career road ERA was 3.04.

Koufax was an amazing pitcher. But Pedro was better.

rats60 · #4 12-28-2015, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Knocking Pedro for having 219 wins when he has 54 more than Sandy? Pedro's career ERA+ was 154. Sandy's was 131. Pedro had FIVE seasons with an ERA+ of 200 or higher, with his best being 291. Sandy had none. Sandy's best would be (barely) Pedro's sixth-best. Sandy also benefited greatly from pitching in Dodger Stadium in the 60s, perhaps the greatest pitcher's park of all-time. His career road ERA was 3.04.

Koufax was an amazing pitcher. But Pedro was better.

All that tells us that pitching in the AL sucked when Pedro was with Boston. Koufax pitched against Spahn, Gibson, Niekro, Marichal, Perry, Bunning, Jenkins, Carlton all hofers plus teammates Drysdale and Sutton.

Koufax's last 4 seasons ERA were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, 1.73. Pedro only had two seasons in that range. Koufax won 25, 26 and 27 games in a season, Pedro's best was 23. Koufax pitched 11, 7, 8 and 5 shutouts, Pedro's best was 4. Koufax pitched 4 no hitters including a perfect game over 5 seasons. Koufax struck out 382 in a season, Pedro's best was 313. Koufax top 2 in MVP voting 3 times, Pedro 1. Koufax 2 WS MVP, Pedro 0. Koufax WS ERA .095. Pedro postseason ERA 3.46, WS ERA 3.71.

ERA+ is an overrated stat. It is too dependant on peers. Koufax was very tough to hit. His ERA would have been just as good during the steroid era. Hard hit balls against him were generally HRs, even without doping. Most players couldn't make solid contact. His road era was higher but Dodger Stadium was a fair park compared to tiny parks in many other NL cities.

Bpm0014 · #5 12-28-2015, 08:50 AM

I have trouble reading Denny's posts as well. I find Denny quite entertaining, but find it impossible to read his posts anymore because of the mixture of upper/lower case letters. His writing structure fits that of a poem, however when I start reading.....it is not a poem....just a confusing mixture of letters and shapes and symbols haha.

Orioles1954 · #6 12-28-2015, 09:36 AM

As an Orioles fan, I just want to toss out this little tidbit. The Baltimore Orioles have never been to a World Series without Jim Palmer on their staff.

Leon · #7 12-28-2015, 09:42 AM

The substance is more meaningful than the delivery, though I enjoy the delivery too. If possible, I would take every single person on this board being Denny (hi Denny), as then we would have the friendliest board on the internet. Some might not be able to read it

, but it would be the friendliest. And for the record, no one has ever been banned for being too nice. Denny is safe.

and back to topic, Johnson's numbers seem to put him at the top.....but there is a CY Young award for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I have trouble reading Denny's posts as well. I find Denny quite entertaining, but find it impossible to read his posts anymore because of the mixture of upper/lower case letters. His writing structure fits that of a poem, however when I start reading.....it is not a poem....just a confusing mixture of letters and shapes and symbols haha.

Kawika · #8 12-28-2015, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

The substance is more meaningful than the delivery, though I enjoy the delivery too. If possible, I would take every single person on this board being Denny (hi Denny), as then we would have the friendliest board on the internet. Some might not be able to read it

, but it would be the friendliest. And for the record, no one has ever been banned for being too nice. Denny is safe.

Second that. Have never met Denny in real-life but he's an old-timer on the board and has always, and I mean always, been a friendly, upbeat, no drama poster. To me his typography is a reflection of his passion for our hobby and his merry personality - I have absolutely no problem with it. (I have a much harder time wading through others' cringeworthy butchering of the mother tongue with the misspellings and impaired grammar and tortured syntax and the rest, which reminds me has anyone seen Barry Sloate lately?) Leon is correct: if everyone here was half as nice as Denny this place would be a friggin' love-in.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 12-28-2015, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

Second that. Have never met Denny in real-life but he's an old-timer on the board and has always, and I mean always, been a friendly, upbeat, no drama poster. To me his typography is a reflection of his passion for our hobby and his merry personality - I have absolutely no problem with it. (I have a much harder time wading through others' cringeworthy butchering of the mother tongue with the misspellings and impaired grammar and tortured syntax and the rest, which reminds me has anyone seen Barry Sloate lately?) Leon is correct: if everyone here was half as nice as Denny this place would be a friggin' love-in.

Your definately right.

irishdenny · #10 12-29-2015, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

Second that. Have never met Denny in real-life but he's an old-timer on the board and has always, and I mean always, been a friendly, upbeat, no drama poster. To me his typography is a reflection of his passion for our hobby and his merry personality - I have absolutely no problem with it. (I have a much harder time wading through others' cringeworthy butchering of the mother tongue with the misspellings and impaired grammar and tortured syntax and the rest, which reminds me has anyone seen Barry Sloate lately?) Leon is correct: if everyone here was half as nice as Denny this place would be a friggin' love-in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

The substance is more meaningful than the delivery, though I enjoy the delivery too. If possible, I would take every single person on this board being Denny (hi Denny), as then we would have the friendliest board on the internet. Some might not be able to read it

, but it would be the friendliest. And for the record, no one has ever been banned for being too nice. Denny is safe.

and back to topic, Johnson's numbers seem to put him at the top.....but there is a CY Young award for a reason.

It's sort of Ironic that this would come at a time
when there seems to be very little
"Overboard Controversy" goin on here on the Net54!?
At least... as far as i can tell, imho & all that good stuff!

Howevar Tiny...
I certainly nevar meant to cause
Any headaches or Eye problems amongst the masses.

Wit that said, my Apologies go out
To those whom I've offended, even in the least!
Honestly, I come Here cause it's the Coolest Place on the Planet!!!
Baseball, the Playr's, They'r History,
& then ther's YOU GUYz!!!

Truthfully...
Way back... When I Started writing abstractly as a self rebellion
to somewhat touch� towards the "Overboard Controversies" that just seem
To be popin up across Our Board,
I didn't mean too, however ~ As time went by...
I just kept writin like it to remind myself
That this Place is a Privilege, iT's NoT a RiGHT!

I Guess is was just to see if anyone really noticed...
As time went on & Wit All of the Hoopla goin on
Only one member evar mention'd it!?

Until THiS THRead HaPPeNeD...
Now that "All is Well Mayberry"
My Shift Key seems to be the Culprit ~ Actually iT's me!

Aftar seein the world the way it really is
Livin through the Cold War on a US Submarine,
& then Spendin sometime in Iraq & Afghanistan
& All Along Bein able to continue visitin my Dear Friends HERE!
(And I would like ta add, that this Place Really Help ta keep me
iN Touch wit What IT's Really ALL About!)
I can't begin ta tell You what a GRaND PLaCE THiS ReaLLy iS!!!

Sooo, my New Years Resolution!?
(1st time in 56 years of life that of done this!)

Finish my E90-1 Set
Gettin as far as i can wit puttin Matty & McGraw tagether from the sets that they're in
"AND LEAVIN THE SHIFT KEY UNTOUCH'd"

My Sincere Apologies to Kevin fir Side Trackin His Thread...
Smashin one at that!!!
Also to Josh W., Ross, Don, Brendan & Fred
Fir makin my writin difficult fir You ta read...
I do Hope that we move positively forward from here on out...

& Josh B., i'm Glad You find me amusing...

Leon, Kevin, David & Peter...
Thank You All Evar So Kindly
Fir All of Your Kind Words... "Truly!!!"
&
i'm Very Please to know that
Leon decided Not ta Ban me!
Don't know which one of You Gents
Convinced Leon Not ta PuLL the RiP Cord
But i'm Grateful None the Less!

As Always my Friends...

"Life iS Grand"
DeNNY

PS Josh W. You my Friend Are a Net54 Celebrity!!!
I Don't Believe That We Have Another!?!?
Who Can Say That They Blasted One Off a Real MLB Pitcher...
"Very Cool iNDeed my Friend!!!"

Orioles1954 · #11 12-28-2015, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

All that tells us that pitching in the AL sucked when Pedro was with Boston. Koufax pitched against Spahn, Gibson, Niekro, Marichal, Perry, Bunning, Jenkins, Carlton all hofers plus teammates Drysdale and Sutton.

Or that might tell us that pitching was king during that generation and there was a reason why rules had to be changed to restore the balance. The fact that Pedro Martinez thrived in the bandbox parks of the A.L. East with roided up batters and the DH is incredible. It's a testament to how great he was as a pitcher, not how terrible pitching was during that era. I can only imagine how 1990s A.L. pitchers like Martinez, Johnson and Mussina would have performed in those massive 1960s ballparks with a free out included!

Peter_Spaeth · #12 12-28-2015, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Or that might tell us that pitching was king during that generation and there was a reason why rules had to be changed to restore the balance. The fact that Pedro Martinez thrived in the bandbox parks of the A.L. East with roided up batters and the DH is incredible. It's a testament to how great he was as a pitcher, not how terrible pitching was during that era. I can only imagine how 1990s A.L. pitchers like Martinez, Johnson and Mussina would have performed in those massive 1960s ballparks with a free out included!

Other than Maddux, I never saw any pitcher who got more batters to swing at balls off the plate than Pedro. Or who got more balls called as strikes.

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