Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Tabe

What mystery? He held/holds the wins record. That's why the award is named after him.

Cy Young is obviously an immortal pitcher with his 511 wins one of baseballs "unbreakable" records. However, his 2.63 lifetime ERA isn't remotely close to Matty's 2.13 and Johnson's 2.17 with both of these hurlers allowing a 1/2 run less than Young per nine innings. Young also amassed virtually half his victories in the 19th century, with 3 of those seasons pitching from 57 feet ( as opposed to 60.5 ft). Young's ERA exceeded 3.00 NINE TIMES during his 22 year "dead ball" era career including 5 seasons in a row during the 1890s. Matty only exceeded 3.00 once before his final season (discounting 3 games in his first season), and before 1920, Johnson had ZERO seasons above the 3.00 mark! Simply stated, Johnson and Matty were tougher to hit than Young and were the better pitchers.

Regarding Koufax, while I am a huge fan of his incredible 4-year run, it is believed by most that the Dodger Stadium rubber was nearly 20 inches high; 5 inches or 33% higher than the standard 15 inch mound during that era!!! That constitutes a ridiculous advantage for a pitcher to create a better downhill plane on nearly all of their pitches. Trying to hit his curveball at Dodger Stadium must have been like trying to eat soup wuth a fork! No wonder his road ERA exceeded 3.00, and this must be taken into account when determining his standing among all-time pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You took that quote from Willie Stargell.

[clydepepper]

Of the three mentioned in the original post, my vote goes to Walter.
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[Touch'EmAll]

Vintageclout brings up a point I have made before - the height of pitchers mound rubber - big huge advantage! I wonder how many no-hitters Ryan would have if he had pitched a decade earlier, whew!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Vintageclout brings up a point I have made before - the height of pitchers mound rubber - big huge advantage! I wonder how many no-hitters Ryan would have if he had pitched a decade earlier, whew!

God...imagine 6'10" Randy Johnson pitching off a 15" to 20" high rubber!!!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You took that quote from Willie Stargell.

Yes Peter! One of my favorite pitching quotes. Another favorite is Reggie Jackson's assessment of Tom Seaver right before Game 1 of the 1973 World Series to a reporter and I quote....."Tom Seaver is so good that blind people come out to the park to HEAR him pitch"!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Yes Peter! One of my favorite pitching quotes. Another favorite is Reggie Jackson's assessment of Tom Seaver right before Game 1 of the 1973 World Series to a reporter and I quote....."Tom Seaver is so good that blind people come out to the park to HEAR him pitch"!

Yeah that was brilliant too. Another great tribute to a pitcher (I believe it's real) is when Norm Cash, the last batter up against Ryan in one of his no-hitters, came to the plate with a broom handle and told the catcher and umpire it would do him just as much good as a bat.

Then there is the immortal assessment of Lefty Grove, though by a writer not a player -- he could throw a lambchop past a wolf.

And speaking of Johnson, supposedly an anonymous batter complained to the umpire about called strike three, saying, it sounded low to me.

[ValKehl]

Bill, many thanks for providing the Giants and Senators team stats, especially the breakdowns as to how these teams fared with and without their star pitchers. The key interpretation I make from these stats is:

- The Giants winning % was 20.9% better when Matty was the pitcher of record (.664/.549 - 1).

- The Senators winning % was 29.7% better when WaJo was the pitcher of record (.599/.462 - 1).

[the 'stache]

If we were to open this topic up a bit at a later date to include modern pitchers, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez would be 1a and 1b at the top of my list. The more I look at Maddux's numbers, in particular, the more impressed I become.

4 Cy Young Awards
4 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Since 1965, only Pedro Martinez' 291 ERA + beats the 271 ERA + Maddux put up in 1994, and the 260 ERA + Maddux put up in 2005.

The reason that Maddux blows my mind most of all is that, unlike Pedro, who had an overpowering fastball to go with his killer control, Maddux never had blazing heat. He achieved what he did with pinpoint accuracy and great ball movement, and made hitters look just foolish in the process.

[dabigyankeeman]

I gotta be honest about Maddux, while totally great, I still think the umps made him much greater than he was. It seemed that every time he pitched, the strike zone got about 4-6 inches wider, away from the batter. Not only gave him extra strikes, but made the batter swing at bad pitches since he knew they were gonna be called strikes.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If we were to open this topic up a bit at a later date to include modern pitchers, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez would be 1a and 1b at the top of my list. The more I look at Maddux's numbers, in particular, the more impressed I become.

4 Cy Young Awards
4 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Since 1965, only Pedro Martinez' 291 ERA + beats the 271 ERA + Maddux put up in 1994, and the 260 ERA + Maddux put up in 2005.

The reason that Maddux blows my mind most of all is that, unlike Pedro, who had an overpowering fastball to go with his killer control, Maddux never had blazing heat. He achieved what he did with pinpoint accuracy and great ball movement, and made hitters look just foolish in the process.

I totally agree with you: What separates Maddux from Pedro and visa versa is that extra weapon Pedro possessed.

The double-edge to that sword of velocity was that it took more out of Pedro and led to shorter starts, while Maddux would just adjust his approach ever so slightly and last longer.

Either way, I felt honored to get to watch their artistry - it was really something to behold!
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[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah that was brilliant too. Another great tribute to a pitcher (I believe it's real) is when Norm Cash, the last batter up against Ryan in one of his no-hitters, came to the plate with a broom handle and told the catcher and umpire it would do him just as much good as a bat.

Then there is the immortal assessment of Lefty Grove, though by a writer not a player -- he could throw a lambchop past a wolf.

And speaking of Johnson, supposedly an anonymous batter complained to the umpire about called strike three, saying, it sounded low to me.

All great quotes Peter! Love the Grove quote which actually starts out: "He's so fast...."

[obcbobd]

Johnson.

And I agree with those citing Pedro or Koufax as among the all time greats.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Johnson.

And I agree with those citing Pedro or Koufax as among the all time greats.

They are greats but of course weren't choices in the survey from the original post.

[dabigyankeeman]

I gotta say Walter Johnson, maybe the greatest ever.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Cy Young is obviously an immortal pitcher with his 511 wins one of baseballs "unbreakable" records. However, his 2.63 lifetime ERA isn't remotely close to Matty's 2.13 and Johnson's 2.17 with both of these hurlers allowing a 1/2 run less than Young per nine innings. Young also amassed virtually half his victories in the 19th century, with 3 of those seasons pitching from 57 feet ( as opposed to 60.5 ft). Young's ERA exceeded 3.00 NINE TIMES during his 22 year "dead ball" era career including 5 seasons in a row during the 1890s. Matty only exceeded 3.00 once before his final season (discounting 3 games in his first season), and before 1920, Johnson had ZERO seasons above the 3.00 mark! Simply stated, Johnson and Matty were tougher to hit than Young and were the better pitchers.

Regarding Koufax, while I am a huge fan of his incredible 4-year run, it is believed by most that the Dodger Stadium rubber was nearly 20 inches high; 5 inches or 33% higher than the standard 15 inch mound during that era!!! That constitutes a ridiculous advantage for a pitcher to create a better downhill plane on nearly all of their pitches. Trying to hit his curveball at Dodger Stadium must have been like trying to eat soup wuth a fork! No wonder his road ERA exceeded 3.00, and this must be taken into account when determining his standing among all-time pitchers.

Runs per game were actually quite high in the 1890's; 2-3 runs per game (combined) higher than the dead ball era...and if Young pitched 3 seasons from 57 feet so did his opponents.