the list (of criminals) is revealed

h2oya311 · #1 02-01-2016, 03:41 PM

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exhibitman · #2 02-01-2016, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exactly my experience, Derek. I wondered why items I consigned the felonious selling crew went for eBay prices when other items were through the roof. Now I know.

BTW, Brian, that Ruth is a great card.

4815162342 · #3 02-01-2016, 03:51 PM

So... what's the solution to this mess?

nolemmings · #4 02-01-2016, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I doubt anything meaningful will happen to fix the problem unless legislation is passed and/or enforcement becomes more widespread. Like another stated however many posts ago, the pervasiveness of auction house shilling is not surprising.

There are of course transparency steps that Auction Houses could utilize, but won't, in some perceived name of privacy. As wonderful as this hobby can be, it is filthy, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I would bet more people are worried about the financial impact it might have on their collections than on the company they keep.

packs · #5 02-01-2016, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I think the only solution is to make this practice so egregious that no one ever tries it again. That would mean ceasing all bidding with anyone associated with shilling. That would also mean ceasing all business with a TPG that contributed to the shilling, as well as making questionable conflict of interest decisions re: grading and selling their own cards. I'd also only bid in increments of one, which will drive down all prices and extend bidding longer, which will also probably drive away prospective bidders.

All in all it seems as though shilling will cost people (AH and TPGs) more money than they ever stood to gain. These opinions are meant to be taken broadly. I am not singling out any one person / company / business.

conor912 · #6 02-01-2016, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So... what's the solution to this mess?

Keep in mind that this is in no way isolated to our hobby. This is a systemic problem with phone/internet auctions across as many hobbies as have them. The fruit is just too low hanging. And, to continue my tree analogy, the roots of the auction industry, TPG industry, and collectors' love for this hobby are so intertwined, that at this point paring back any one too much may kill all three.

Rich Klein · #7 02-01-2016, 06:45 PM

If anyone who accepts advertising money refuses ads from people (or their employers) mentioned in the list

Rich

Snapolit1 · #8 02-01-2016, 07:01 PM

One thing for some yutz on eBay supporting his buddy with a few fake bids. Quote another for someone who runs an auction house to be an active participant in fraud. I'd be awfully concerned about class action lawsuits if I was one of these guys.

Yoda · #9 02-01-2016, 08:02 PM

After all this horror, intrigue, second-guessing, finger pointing and what else, it just occurs to me that the themes underlying the whole sordid Mastro business are just those old human traits of greed, jealousy and hubris which turned what seemed, when I first got involved outside of my boyhood, from a pleasant, harmless hobby into something that has taken on a life of its' own. My one comforting thought is that, where I am right now, they aren't making any more pre-war cards (real ones, anyhow) and I still love looking at them. John

Tennis13 · #10 02-01-2016, 08:03 PM

Hello All. I am a New Jersey-based semi-serious collector. I am the owner of a few, higher-end graded 1933 & 1934 Goudeys. I am obviously reading this board with keen interest. I collect with my dad, and we enjoy it -- it's nothing more, nothing less.

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

I have read this document many times the past 48 hours. I have read most, but not all of the replies to this thread. A few things jump out. Yes, there are typos in this document. I believe that's because the filing is from the defense, not the prosecution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm also not as entrenched in this industry as many of you are. I have been Googling as many of the shill bidders to try to unravel and connect the dots across various industries. The vertical integration on the business front is quite astounding, given the audacity that these people have, and the connections they have to other industries! I'm really intrigued to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for your help.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 02-01-2016, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

1952boyntoncollector · #12 02-01-2016, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

right the fact that victim was 'legit' and was able to pay a certain price means that maybe in a direct deal that victim would of maybe paid that same price.....we also went through the scenario that another legit buyer may of been out there but the bidding slot was already taken by the first legit buyer so the card may not of even needed to be shilled..

perhaps the other poster here just thought their cards were worth more than they really are and was hoping for magic with an auction.....its not the first time a seller would overvalue a card and not sell it in a direct deal and then get disappointing results at an AH..

now if the the shilled cards were exactly the same card visually and from the same grade of a card that was submitted and sold for 'next to nothing'..then i think that's a different story..

but in reality the non shilled cards were being sold at legit market price...

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