the list (of criminals) is revealed

[dwightclarkJ]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Thanks for that message Leon, Getting real tired of listening about insurance companys and lawyers. Wow did this post get way off tract from starting about shill bidding and auction houses

I am sure that tactic was deployed for that very reason. I believe that this is a very touchy subject and many people have they're reasons for wishing this would end and go away.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by dwightclarkJ

I am sure that tactic was deployed for that very reason. I believe that this is a very touchy subject and many people have they're reasons for wishing this would end and go away.

+1

[dwightclarkJ]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

+1

I got into a bad accident in which a teenage driver totaled my car. Fortunately the teenage driver was insured under parents insurance policy. I am thankful that only the car was totaled and I wasn't shilled.
clark J

[mickeymao34]

David Carradine passed on in 2009 under unfortunate circumstances. Was Shill Bill his last movie?

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

David Carradine passed on in 2009 under unfortunate circumstances. Was Shill Bill his last movie?

Actually it was Shill Bill 2

[botn]

Originally Posted by dwightclarkJ

I got into a bad accident in which a teenage driver totaled my car. Fortunately the teenage driver was insured under parents insurance policy. I am thankful that only the car was totaled and I wasn't shilled.
clark J

Were you not one of the people less than an hour ago who was critical of this going OT and posted this?

Originally Posted by dwightclarkJ

Ron, Thanks for the concise, to the point and accurate post. You nailed a substantial part of what is ignored on this topic. What is truly shaking my head is how this thread derailed and got on topic of insurance companies and mouth pieces talking about cases. If they are genuine posts but just got off topic then they should seek out an attorneys forum, which i'm sure they exist as they love to keep that soap box going(kidding). I was actually just in the audience and decided to joined this forum after the last 2 -3 pages of weird posts . And yes thanks to this forum.
clark J

Here is the thread to have fun with the word shill. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217493

Fact remains only 4 people whose names are on the list posted here with an explanation. There are many others on the list who are members here and or advertisers who have been silent and just hoping this goes away.

[keithsky]

In my opinion the ones on the list that haven't responded are just waiting for things to die down and then the posts run there coarse and then they won't have to talk about it. Think about it if the posts on here stop in the next few days or weeks do you think they are going to get on here and start one up talking about themselves and take a bunch of abuse. Not likley

[Exhibitman]

Hank, I think part of the problem is that the shill may be a shill or a victim of phantom bidding or someone who is listed because of a Mastro rule violation that was not the fault of the bidder [as Kevin K. seems to be]. Unless/until the people involved step up and explain which it was, there is some speculation involved, which is where the creeps are happy to leave it. What's the Nixonism, plausible deniability? However, the longer previously active board members go without addressing the allegations against them, the stinkier the mess becomes IMO.

Kevin: I appreciate the clarity of your responses. If it was me, I would see if I could get something in writing from the FBI or prosecution, just to be clear forever. I hope others learn from your example and are straightforward and unequivocal when attempting to set the record straight.

Fred: I've had two of those cases: one the carrier paid the wrong person and one denied because the dead guy's name had been legally changed and not entirely updated in the insurer's records despite 20 years of premiums paid in the new name. Both ended up paying after a fight.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by dwightclarkJ

I am sure that tactic was deployed for that very reason. I believe that this is a very touchy subject and many people have they're reasons for wishing this would end and go away.

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

[dwightclarkJ]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron, Thanks for the concise, to the point and accurate post. You nailed a substantial part of what is ignored on this topic. What is truly shaking my head is how this thread derailed and got on topic of insurance companies and mouth pieces talking about cases. If they are genuine posts but just got off topic then they should seek out an attorneys forum, which i'm sure they exist as they love to keep that soap box going(kidding). I was actually just in the audience and decided to joined this forum after the last 2 -3 pages of weird posts . And yes thanks to this forum.
clark J

[ullmandds]

just got a pastrami on rye at my neighborhood deli...it came with a SHILL pickle!

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

just got a pastrami on rye at my neighborhood deli...it came with a SHILL pickle!

ROFLMFAO! Was just watching VH1 classic 80 videos. They just played one of my favorites from the Gloved One: Shiller

[Hankphenom]

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

[HRBAKER]

Another plausible explanation why they haven't addressed could be that some of them don't care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

.

In my experience with Sterling, I'd say 50 percent of my winning bids went for less than my max. I'd definitely add him to this good guy list

Rich

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

Shilling has been going on soooooo long that AH's don't even think that the practice is illegal its just common business practice.

I understand having an auction reserve price as a form of protection for the seller if thats the route you want to go especially on quality memorabilia the problem for me is that this runs much deeper than just having a reserve.

AH's want to get as many potential buyers bidding and mentally vested in the process with the hopes of overselling the item by setting the stage for a bidding war or an impulse decision to bid/buy.

If I had to guess I would guess that 40% of what you think you see selling at AH's are in fact items that had hidden reserves that weren't met especially in todays market place.

Bottom line shilling has been around 4ever, is alive and well, and without impartial 3rd party over-site not going anywhere anytime soon. Anyone who tells you anything different probably works for or owns an AH.

Ron Kosiewicz

[WindyCityGameUsed]

MY advise is

[dwightclarkJ]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

I get 1,2,3,5,6 of 2nd list. BUT #4)Running internet IP addresses on posters.
WTF? what purpose do this serve?
Clark

[begsu1013]

so, requesting "#7 - conducting random anal swabs" might be overkill at this juncture?

[dwightclarkJ]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

so, requesting "#7 - conducting random anal swabs" might be overkill at this juncture?

lmfao!

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by dwightclarkJ

I get 1,2,3,5,6 of 2nd list. BUT #4)Running internet IP addresses on posters.
WTF? what purpose do this serve?
Clark

It's my understanding from comments made over the years by mods & members of that Turdish Paradise/Propaganda Machine GUU that Pappa G front man Chris Cavalier is an IT guy who likes 2 run the IP address of posters deemed 2B negative of the state sponsored storyline.

This sycophant controlling behavior is done 2 provide the identities of GUU Clown College students.

What I can't figure out is why the creepy disfunction when the continual storyline is that of industry good guys who are beyond reproach with their means & methods of doing business?

[drcy]

The gameusedforum originated right here on Net54. The game used discussions took place here, then Eric took them and started the gameusedforum, which was eventually taken over by GUU.

GUU used to have its own auctions and members could (and would) discuss the auction lots right there on the auction site during the auction. In fact, if I recall correctly you could discuss a particular lot right under the lot offering. Unique and daring amongst auction sites and the discussions were often quite healthy and informative.

[GoCubsGo32]

Has anyone else found an item on eBay with a "Buy it Now"...then see that exact item in an AH listing at the same time.The item "sold" in the AH listing (with no reserve) and the exact item on eBay never changes, never gets remove or any price change. How does that work?!

[terjung]

Thank you to those who have voiced their support of BST Auctions. We do not take lightly the trust that has been placed in us. With our catalog now prepared to mail this Tuesday, we have a moment to breathe and to again address this critically important issue that affects the entire hobby.

Andy, John and I have been collectors for years, bidding in the same auctions as many of you here. We too are repulsed by the criminal activity that has been permitted to permeate this hobby for entirely too long. Any auction house owner can tell you that nothing shady is going on behind the scenes. I strongly suspect that those convicted of criminal activity would have said the exact same thing. To us, lip service wasn’t good enough.

So, we contracted with our service provider to have a way to communicate to our bidders that their max bids and passwords would be known to them alone. In short, we built the accountability into our software and are proud to display the True Bid™ seal that demonstrates to our bidders that we cannot see the amount of any max bids placed or any passwords.

Stated another way, we didn’t want our bidders to have to hope that we couldn’t see max bids and/or passwords or to hope that the conversation came up on a message forum so that we could answer the question. We took the step to answer the question before it was asked, contracted to have the True Bid™ system, and proudly display its logo.

Our preview will go live this Friday, February 20 and will open a week later. Keep your eyes open for catalogs for this March 19 auction to arrive in your mailbox! We have been told numerous times that we need to offer a second auction each year. BST Auctions is listening and we will have a Fall auction starting this year! Thank you again for all your support and trust.

Sincerely,
Brian Terjung

www.BST-Auctions.com

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

Seems like item 3 of your 2nd column being employed again by "The Real" on his expert opinions and prospective buying. Yet of course this "guy" has never posted nor talked about anything he collects. I guess threat color code has lessened to yellow.